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PostSubject: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 06:19

The more I play the more I see other army's have so many more options. I sometimes slip into a thought process of did I choose the right army. As my force's fly across the table to there beautiful death. Perhaps I just need to tweak my tactic's or perhaps I need to buy more of that or this. No no no this is my army look at my evil little spiky elfs.
Has anyone else had the same notion should I also start a competitive eldar army? Or are Drukhari able to be just as competitive as every one else. I keep having most issues against my friends chaos army everyone -1 to hit and hordes of them. I keep telling myself well he has his new codex! When we get ours we will be good.......

What do you all thank?
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 06:49

It's too early to get this depressed. Wait for news in the new year on when we might hopefully expect our Codex.

If you're feeling grim then at least be smart and start steadily building a force based on one of the codexes that have been released so far.
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Drakthul
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 08:21

I've got Dark Eldar and Tau right now. I take solace in knowing we'll get a book (And I'll get a book in both cases lol)

Remember to lean on what makes you strong if you can. And remember that it is hopefully not too long before a book lands.
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 09:21

I'd say there's a more than a few DE players that have CWE or Harlequin forces since in last edition they could ally and Ynnari became a thing.

Drukhari don't seem to be in a bad place in a casual format or outside of top tier competition. It's also still early in 8th edition with only a handful of codex out currently and there is no telling what our eventual book will bring.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 09:49

What is great at the moment is how all DE players seem to be on the same page about what needs fixing in the future DE codex. I didn't read it myself but posters on here have mentioned how GW confirmed they were aware of the points cost issue with Reavers and Hellions I believe.

So if they are truly listening to what the DE community are saying then we can expect some positive changes I am sure.

Better Talos...at £28 this guy needs to be as good as a Dreadnought
Cheaper Reavers with 2 spec weapons per 5 maybe
Better Archon/HQ choices
Cheaper weapons points cost
Some decent wargear options on vehicles/HQ

That alone would fix the things I would like fixing and I am sure others have plenty of other ideas on what needs further attention.

Like I said if they are listening and intend on taking our points on board then we have much to look forward to.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 09:53

To make DE competitive they either need to give us a good mass-AI tool, or fix the broken conscript/brimstone meta.
Honestly, we feel weak in competitive because we don't fit in the meta : our army is specialized in taking down tanks and high toughness infantry.
If the game shifts to a MC/tanks meta, DE will automatically become a top tier army. But in a T3 horde meta, well, we suck.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 09:57

Mppqlmd do you think Splinter Racks would go some way to fixing this? I know poison is still poor against T3 but it would be a good start.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 10:34

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Mppqlmd do you think Splinter Racks would go some way to fixing this?  I know poison is still poor against T3 but it would be a good start.

I think Splinter Racks would definitly increase our AI power, but there might be a twist.
Splinter racks are creating an opportunity for a crazy amount of splinter fire : we're talking 48 poisoned shots on a 200ish unit. Combined with Doom, you're getting something that can dish 24 wounds to any toughness (for example, dealing 8 damage to a 3+ Swarm Lord).

We would get what i would consider to be a tool that balanced against infantry, but completly overpowered against MCs. Which would affect the meta : fielding large amount of MCs would be increadibly stupid if you know there might be someone at the tournament that can light them up with such ease. Tyrannids would become a trash-tier army again, and people would be encouraged to field even more low-Toughness high-numbers units, enforcing the Conscript meta that hurts us so much.

So here's my thoughts : even if i would love to get Splinter Racks, i think the existence of Splinter Racks would prevent the meta from shifting into a state where people play MCs and high-T infantry. But that's precisely the type of meta we, as DE players, want to be in ! So in a certain way, if Splinter Racks get added in the codex for a low price, they might sabotage splinter weapons as a whole.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 12:20

Thats a great point and I agree with what you're saying...

So what if Splinter Racks came back but in a different form?

Re-roll ones perhaps? Still too strong?

Rapid fire at a greater distance? Say 18" instead of 12"? Would that help? It would give us better fire output earlier in the game or just means we are out of rapid fire range ourselves so more survivable.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 13:00

I think if the Splinter Racks become : "reroll fail to hit rolls", it would be fine.

The problem would rise if they stay "give twin linked". I would love it, but i think it would be a problem.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 13:13

I still thank poison just needs to hit infantry on 3+ lol
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 13:46

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Mppqlmd do you think Splinter Racks would go some way to fixing this?  I know poison is still poor against T3 but it would be a good start.

I think Splinter Racks would definitly increase our AI power, but there might be a twist.
Splinter racks are creating an opportunity for a crazy amount of splinter fire : we're talking 48 poisoned shots on a 200ish unit. Combined with Doom, you're getting something that can dish 24 wounds to any toughness (for example, dealing 8 damage to a 3+ Swarm Lord).

We would get what i would consider to be a tool that balanced against infantry, but completly overpowered against MCs. Which would affect the meta : fielding large amount of MCs would be increadibly stupid if you know there might be someone at the tournament that can light them up with such ease. Tyrannids would become a trash-tier army again, and people would be encouraged to field even more low-Toughness high-numbers units, enforcing the Conscript meta that hurts us so much.

So here's my thoughts : even if i would love to get Splinter Racks, i think the existence of Splinter Racks would prevent the meta from shifting into a state where people play MCs and high-T infantry. But that's precisely the type of meta we, as DE players, want to be in ! So in a certain way, if Splinter Racks get added in the codex for a low price, they might sabotage splinter weapons as a whole.

They could always take poisoned weapons to 4+ normal, 5+ vs Monstrous creatures, and 6+ vs vehicles. then twin link it. Napkin math the damage to big gribblies would remain the same, but only if twin linked. It would drop pretty much anywhere else.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 17:00

But then any Poison source that isn't under the effect of Twin Link (Venoms, Scourges, anything that has a splinter cannon, and even CC Wracks) would become very... weak.

I think the way to go for poison would be giving a poison wounding buff aura to the Lhamaen.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 17:17

I suspect that, if it makes it into the codex, 'splinter racks' will be a strategem, rather than a vehicle upgrade.

Same with webway portals (might look something like the 'forward operatives' alpha legion strategem - which currently is very nasty... recently played vs. alpha legion player who used it 3 times to drop 2 units of berserkers and 1 unit of chosen in front of me before the 1st turn, and he went first... though I'm expecting GW to eventually impose a limit on the number of strategems that you can play pre-game, for this reason)
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 17:34

@megatrons2nd wrote:
They could always take poisoned weapons to 4+ normal, 5+ vs Monstrous creatures, and 6+ vs vehicles. then twin link it.  Napkin math the damage to big gribblies would remain the same, but only if twin linked.  It would drop pretty much anywhere else.

While I agree conceptually, this would rob us even the last edge of Splinter weapons. I think Splinter weapons are perfect to have as an option, but as primary means of AI they are lacking.

The only reason this comes up now is because we used to be able to spam Splinter fire with Venomspam. Ideally, we would get new weapons but realistically the best we can hope for are Splinter Racks.

@Mppqlmd wrote:
But then any Poison source that isn't under the effect of Twin Link (Venoms, Scourges, anything that has a splinter cannon, and even CC Wracks) would become very... weak.

I think it goes back to the "ideal vs realistic" solution. Ideally, we wouldn't need Splinter Racks and have other solutions to infantry spam (better rockets on Razorwings, ranged spam of S3/S4, more/cheaper flamer-type weapons etc.).

However, realistically GW won't change (m)any weapon profiles and won't give us new weapons. This is why I would take Splinter Racks. It's better than nothing and historically Splinter fire was only good because it could be spammed. So, from a pragmatic point of view nothing would change.

@Mppqlmd wrote:
I think the way to go for poison would be giving a poison wounding buff aura to the Lhamaen.

You mean an aura that doesn't work in transports (for questionable reasons)? Don't get me wrong, I would love to have that buff, but I think it would only change little in practice. And even with the aura affecting Kabalites you could probably simply invest in more Kabalite bodies.

It would be fun to run a Lhamaean with some Wracks for sure, but it wouldn't provide us with new answers on the grand scheme of things.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 17:44

Quote :
You mean an aura that doesn't work in transports (for questionable reasons)? Don't get me wrong, I would love to have that buff, but I think it would only change little in practice.

"Any poison attack targetting a unit that is within 12" of a Lhaemean is wounded on 3+ instead of on 4+."  
Boom. Done.

Or you want to make it combo with the Ossefactor and stinger pistol ? Make it reroll 1's to wound for poisoned attacks made against near units Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 18:15

As @krayd said I can see splinter racks and we way portals as stratagems.
1CP per raider or 3 armywide would be an honest price for splinter racks
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 18:22

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
You mean an aura that doesn't work in transports (for questionable reasons)? Don't get me wrong, I would love to have that buff, but I think it would only change little in practice.

"Any poison attack targetting a unit that is within 12" of a Lhaemean is wounded on 3+ instead of on 4+."  
Boom. Done.

Regardless, the Lhamean would still need to be disembarked in order to use her aura effect.. though that is probably just a minor inconvenience.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 18:47

Indeed. That would be a minor inconvenience, since she already needs to be out of a vehicle to benefit from the existing Archon Court aura.

And when the Archon gets his webway portal, this won't be a problem anymore :
Deepstrike archon and court near a unit => your splinter weapons proceed to kill them faster due to the Lhamean rule.

Having some restrictions is normal. The fact that a HQ has to be out of vehicle is a minor hindrance. The real hindrance is the fact that embarked units can't benefit from it, but it can be fixed with rules that affect enemies instead.


As always, the key to an interesting gameplay is not to make units without any form of disadvantage : it's to make units with disadvantages that can be canceled if you play correctly/plan ahead.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 20:16

I would love to see a "dark eldar codex rule" that says that all rapid fire weapons fire if they were on half range. This would totally fit the play style and enhance the effectivity on shooting infantry. Spamming dark lances and splinter cannons. Sign me up.

I am not sure if this is enough though. But we do have the advantage on the range vs conscrips I would say.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 20:29

What you're asking is change every rapid fire weapon into Assault 2, basically ?
I'm curious : why do you think it fits the playstyle more ?

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 22:37

No I mean keep the profile but always get full shots. rapid fire 1 = 2 shots, rapid fire 2 = 4 shots, rapid fire 3 = 6 shots etc.

I play gunboats and ravagers and flyers. I cut out a lot of splinter fire because its so uneffective, but if you increase the amount of shots on range I think it fits my playstyle of shooting things to death at a good range and get closer when the enemy is crippled.

As I said i wonder if this change is even enough or just a brainfart.
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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Fri Sep 08 2017, 23:52

DE has options via different units, we have many niche units that are only good at doing 1 thing and have vew units that are good at multi roles. Look at hellions and wyches for an example of niche.

There are few units that are all around good, the problem is they are ones that are costly or just fill the same role already, like Ravager, Jet fighter, and Bomber, these are all very good units but fill almost the same roles.

You also have overcosted gear (codex will fix some of this for sure).

And lastly the MOST IMPORTANT ONE Our HQ's dont give us the extra tact-ability like all other armies, our Auras are not good and we HAVE to be in Vehicles, a walking Archon/Succubus will do nothing good with the nature of how DE plays.

I play SOB also, the Canoness giving Re-rolls 1 for "all hits" really helps, but b.c they are 3+/6++ and really cheap models with 4/5 guns that shoot 24-36" you can place an 85pt unit with 36" range on the table in cover with an HQ and dont worry about them. You also have a very Survivable, fast moving HQ (St, Celestine) that is also a great unit.

Look at CSM, SM, TAU etc.. etc.. etc... a good Character can give many more options b.c they are "Force Multipliers" and are worth building different tactics around.

Imagine if DE had good Auras like Re-roll 1's of all hits (not just melee) BUT they can be on a bike or have wings. At that point a Archon with Wings can go with a scourge unit and now you re-roll 1's, he is a good anti-charge unit at this point. Or a Skyboard Succubus with "Hellions get No-escape" and now you have a No-escape fast moving unit.


OK, BUT with all the said Pure DE is still very strong and viable, they need to be played a bit more smartly tho and know that you might now "wipe out" a full unit, sometimes for DE its best to weaken certain units and as always focus on what is most threatening to your army.

When i Power list, i dont lose with DE, tho its a very spam list.... Many Ravagers, some Fliers, a few Raiders, a few Beasts for map control and cheap troops. With Ravagers, Flyers, Raiders/trueborn, i just pump out something like  36-40 mid to high str shots, high ap and all multi damage, i have cheap troops and beast to hold off the army from advancing.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Sat Sep 09 2017, 01:16

The new Deathguard leaks are pretty awesome.
Ignore heavy weapon penalty while moving. Ignore Assault Weapon penalty while advancing. Rapid Fire double tap at 18" minimum. 5+++ Feel No Pain.

Sure it isn't on their vehicles except for the Hellbrute, but that does mean that Havoc squads now have an INSANE threat range. The 18" rapid fire in particular would be killer on DE, giving us that little bit of extra high effective range for our mobile units.

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PostSubject: Re: Trying to stay true to the dark.   Sat Sep 09 2017, 02:16

Right now my most competitive list (that I own) is...

1x raider DL <-- About to switch to diss cannon
Archon blaster agonizer
1unite trueborn x4 blasters x2 dark lances pgl blast pistol agonizer

5xvenoms 2xSC
2xunits true born with 2xSC 2xblasters pgl blast pistol agonizer (been working well for me)
2xunit kab 1x blaster
1xunit incubi
2xunit scourge 4xdarklances

I am still waiting on GW to get some dang razorwings jetfighters but I NEED two so I can complete the list.

So far the rest of the list has done ok.

I took mandrakes out did do as well as I wanted but have 7.
I also have.
Farseer skyrunner have not used
Visiarch have not used
Yncarne have not used
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