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 Dark Eldar in melee

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in melee   Wed Sep 06 2017, 00:55

FuelDrop wrote:
I must be missing something: How are you getting the leadership bubble with the succubus?
The Tantalus has a special rule, if the Warlord is on board any friendly unit within line of sight of it (and lets face it, with the size of the Tantalus thats everything) can use the Warlords leadership for moral.
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in melee   Wed Sep 06 2017, 00:58

amishprn86 wrote:

I've been using her.... in the Tantalus with +2 LD drug for a 10LD infinite LD buff to my army XD


I didn't think you could bubble from within a vehicle as you aren't on the board.
Edit: ninjaed

I'm surprised the feeling on wyches is they are as close as a couple of such weapons from being a good squad. For me they just don't dish out enough attacks to whittle down their target fast enough to make it die before they do. Even with more wych weapons they would then cost so much more that they would be prohibitive I feel. If the wych weapons were free or 1point then I might agree, but I don't see that hydra gauntlets as better than an agoniser, as that extra -1 is so effective
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Deris87
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in melee   Wed Sep 06 2017, 01:23

It's part of the Tantalus' abilities, if your Warlord is embarked on it all models that can draw LoS to it can use it's Leadership.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in melee   Wed Sep 06 2017, 01:45

Its the Tantalus ability, not the characters aura.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in melee   Wed Sep 06 2017, 01:46

My main issue with Wyches is that they are by default doing damage like a guardsman in rapid fire range (since a guardsman can rapid fire 2 to compensate for lower accuracy) while also having to take overwatch and letting the enemy strike back, for twice the points.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in melee   Wed Sep 06 2017, 08:09

Jeah I don't think just allowing more special weapons will fix it.
After calculating, maybe it would work.
I thought the Khymera would be cheaper faster thougher and deal more damage, but actually with the right drugs the wyches deal a tiny bit more damage.
So it might actually be a choice, fast units that can be better with support.
Troop choices that can take a vehicle but are less though.

Still 13 points for a wych seems like a lot to me. And they should change the price of the wyches a little bit even if the final unit price stays the same. The wych weapons increase the damage by nearly 100%
Which to me means the wyches themselves should be around 7 or 8 points and the wych weapons around 6. So there actually is a choice on if when and which wych weapons to include.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in melee   Wed Sep 06 2017, 08:49

|Meavar wrote:
Jeah I don't think just allowing more special weapons will fix it.
After calculating, maybe it would work.
I thought the Khymera would be cheaper faster thougher and deal more damage, but actually with the right drugs the wyches deal a tiny bit more damage.
So it might actually be a choice, fast units that can be better with support.
Troop choices that can take a vehicle but are less though.

Still 13 points for a wych seems like a lot to me. And they should change the price of the wyches a little bit even if the final unit price stays the same. The wych weapons increase the damage by nearly 100%
Which to me means the wyches themselves should be around 7 or 8 points and the wych weapons around 6. So there actually is a choice on if when and which wych weapons to include.

Here's the thing: if a weapon costs the same as the model it's being strapped to it should increase damage by >100%. The reason is that buying a second model instead of the weapon gives you an extra wound, and more CC/Shooting (whichever the special weapon does not grant you). This is why special weapons that do not increase the squad's capacities in some way outside of just more hits are generally thought higher of than weapons that are just more of the same.

This is why the Splinter Cannon is considered to be so bad. It provides the same shots as two extra guys for more points, but its only other distinguishing factor is range, which is less valuable than you would think for an army as mobile as ours. as a result it isn't looked upon favorably in most instances.

Wych weapons cost a shooting attack (which is functionally an extra attack that wounds on 4+ vs most targets, something Wyches want, and can be shot while in combat too), but they grant -1 AP (good) and... lets be honest, everyone takes hydra gauntlets, so we are rerolling failed wounds. This is great, and it's a nice benefit... until you see that there are armies that are getting buffs that let them reroll failed hits and wounds for shooting and assault just from being near one of their guys. So what we have is good, but it's not exactly a game changer.


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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in melee   Wed Sep 06 2017, 09:21

FuelDrop wrote:

Here's the thing: if a weapon costs the same as the model it's being strapped to it should increase damage by >100%. The reason is that buying a second model instead of the weapon gives you an extra wound, and more CC/Shooting (whichever the special weapon does not grant you). This is why special weapons that do not increase the squad's capacities in some way outside of just more hits are generally thought higher of than weapons that are just more of the same.

This is why the Splinter Cannon is considered to be so bad. It provides the same shots as two extra guys for more points, but its only other distinguishing factor is range, which is less valuable than you would think for an army as mobile as ours. as a result it isn't looked upon favorably in most instances.


There is however one exception to that rule, and it affects DE dearly : transports capacity. Sure, if buying one more wych costs the same and brings the same damage output as buying a weapon, you could do it... but you can't, because your raider is full and you won't be fielding tantali for every squad.
So in a certain way, Splinter cannons are okayish on warriors because they allow you to have more splinter shots without having to buy more transports. It's more compact, if you prefer, and being compact is important in an all mek force.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in melee   Wed Sep 06 2017, 09:21

|Meavar wrote:

Still 13 points for a wych seems like a lot to me. And they should change the price of the wyches a little bit even if the final unit price stays the same. The wych weapons increase the damage by nearly 100%
Which to me means the wyches themselves should be around 7 or 8 points and the wych weapons around 6. So there actually is a choice on if when and which wych weapons to include.

This edition with other armies you tend to get triple the damage output for double the price for basic troops (see gaunts vs devil gaunts)
Based on the pricing gw has done with other armies this edition, If the damage is double I would only expect to pay half the points of the model again, otherwise I will always take the extra body.

On a side note (and not trying to derail this topic), this is also why I advocate that splinter cannons should be 7-8 points, same points as a warrior for triple the damage.

Edit: Fuel Drop Ninja'd me, and has a worded it much better!

Edit 2: Minsc, you have a reasonable point, and is the reason I'm looking at taking splinter cannons in my trueborn venom squads, but I would counter that this is the same for all armies (albeit, they don't get to shoot from their vehicles)
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in melee   Wed Sep 06 2017, 10:01

I've found wyches disappointing for damage output, even on the charge. But I locked down a dreadnaught in my last game for about 3 turns. Not sure how I would fix them, the 4++ is great, PfP synergies well (even better if the Succubus bubble re-rolled wounds not hits), I suppose more distinction between wyches/bloodbrides so you could make a hammer-anvil tactic work.

Incubi are great, they go in my venom which most people don't like shooting at for the -1 to hit. After they disembark the venom charges to eat the overwatch and they come crashing in. Not sure if it's cheese but I roll the Klaivex wounds first against TEQ.

Hellions have amazing models and I really like them on the table top. I've had the 2 damage go to waste against 1 wound models though.

I wish reavers were better - whatever I do with them seems to always result in "meh", I have used their 24" move to fly them right up to Characters and murder them with the heat lance, really unreliable though, if all 3 bikes could have special weapons I think that would really help. But in melee they mostly just get murdered even with their 2 W and 5 T.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in melee   Wed Sep 06 2017, 10:44

FuelDrop wrote:

Here's the thing: if a weapon costs the same as the model it's being strapped to it should increase damage by >100%. The reason is that buying a second model instead of the weapon gives you an extra wound, and more CC/Shooting (whichever the special weapon does not grant you). This is why special weapons that do not increase the squad's capacities in some way outside of just more hits are generally thought higher of than weapons that are just more of the same.

Which is why I did not suggest the same price even if the damage output is roughly 100% (87.5% vs GQ, 100% vs orks, 150% vs MQ, 233%)
And as mppq mentioned a huge part of our limitations on sizes come from vehicles. Thus I suggested to make wyches themselves 1 or 2 points cheaper while making their weapons 1 or 2 points more expensive. This still leaves the wyches more expensive then the weapon (with the weapon wych costing around 12.5% less then 2 wyches but dealing between 6.25% less to 66% more damage and not needing more transports seems quite fair to me. Which means point for point the damage of a weapon wych is always more then regular wyches. Do you want more damage, take the weapons, do you want more survivability take the wyches.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar in melee   Wed Sep 06 2017, 17:28

mtruelove wrote:
I've found wyches disappointing for damage output, even on the charge. But I locked down a dreadnaught in my last game for about 3 turns. Not sure how I would fix them, the 4++ is great, PfP synergies well (even better if the Succubus bubble re-rolled wounds not hits), I suppose more distinction between wyches/bloodbrides so you could make a hammer-anvil tactic work.

Incubi are great, they go in my venom which most people don't like shooting at for the -1 to hit. After they disembark the venom charges to eat the overwatch and they come crashing in. Not sure if it's cheese but I roll the Klaivex wounds first against TEQ.

Hellions have amazing models and I really like them on the table top. I've had the 2 damage go to waste against 1 wound models though.

I wish reavers were better - whatever I do with them seems to always result in "meh", I have used their 24" move to fly them right up to Characters and murder them with the heat lance, really unreliable though, if all 3 bikes could have special weapons I think that would really help. But in melee they mostly just get murdered even with their 2 W and 5 T.

Yep, hopefully if the trend stays the same and less used units/gear are getting cheaper, then we should be good with Hellions and Reavers getting a large cost reduction.

I played 10-15 Hellions for 7 games in a roll, they are honestly to Niche for their price, there is a couple units in the game they will shred, but 90% of all others they dont do enough. Their problem is the cost, for 194pts (i take stunclaw) for 10 T3 | 5+ | 1W models they just are not good enough, I love them and want to play with them. But until they are 13pts a model i wont try again.

Reavers are not melee, they are both and suffer from Jack of all master of none. They are over priced for lack of options. Look at Windriders, Cloud Dancers and Skyweavers, they all can have all options on each model. Until Reavers get a bonus for lack of options (Like old HoW aka Bladevans like in 5th and 6th) or go down by 10-12pts pts each i wont be using them, and its sad b.c i have like 30 of them.

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