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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 15:08

Hi All

I have been wondering since I watched a recent battle report...exactly how good are our Ravagers when compared to other tanks from other armies?

I watched a blood angels player make good use of Razorbacks with twin linked lascannons. He was able to dish out a lot of damage with them...which left me wondering just how does the Ravager measure up?

2 Ravagers with triple DL comes in at 310 points.
3 Razorbacks with twin linked lascannon comes in at 345 points.

I know that there is a 35 point gap between the two comparisons...I do agree that is significant, but not so great that when list building it would be a problem.

The Ravagers have speed, an Invul save and 6 guns means being able to spread fire better than 3x twin linked. The Razorbacks though are 3 in number, have a better T and a 3+ save against small arms fire...and can carry troops.

I guess 35 points could nearly buy you another 2 dark lances...so what about a 4xlascannon Predator with a lascannon razorback both with storm bolters and hunter missiles at 333 points?

I notice with a lot of army lists people try to have at least 3 Ravagers in a 2000 point army...is this because they are really good and worth the points or is this because we have few other choices?
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 15:36

Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I notice with a lot of army lists people try to have at least 3 Ravagers in a 2000 point army...is this because they are really good and worth the points or is this because we have few other choices?
Yes and also yes would be the short answer.

Your other questions start to get really complicated as you're not really comparing apples to apples.

But, to your general compare/contrast of Ravagers to Razorbacks and Predators I would note the following as my long answer;

The Razorback's armor save vs. small arms fire is fairly minor as far as advantages go.
The Ravager's 5+ invulnerable against all shooting is fairly huge.
You mention speed as a Ravager advantage, but don't really delve into how massive of an advantage it is. Yeah, if a Razorback sits there not moving it is vaguely in the ballpark of pumping out the damage a Ravager does (1 less shot and less AP)
The thing is the Ravager can do that while whipping around the board, and if the Razorback so much as shifts an inch it is suddenly down to solidly less functional shooting than a Ravager.

Let's look at your closest point compare - the Pred and Razorback vs. 2 Ravagers.
The Imps can generate 6 AP-3 shots and 2 Ap-2 1 shots all of which the Ravagers will get a 5+ save against. The Ravagers can return fire with 6 AP-4 shots that the Imps get...zero protection against unless they're in cover, in which case they get a 6+.

If the Ravagers get the first salvo (highly likely due to their speed and ability to hit very accurately after moving) there is a good chance the Imps don't even get a chance to fire back without being so severely wounded that their shots are near meaningless (certainly 6 lances into one Pred does 4 hits, two wounds at d6 a pop, which ought to potentially cripple it). The same even applies with 3 Razorbacks.

Conversely, there is a not unreasonable chance that even if the Ravagers are narf enough to allow the Imperium first shot the Imperium is going to hit about 50% and then lose about 33% after saves only giving them about 2-3 successful hits from their salvo, down to about 1-2 getting through as damage, and their salvo will be far less next turn regardless)

So Ravagers are actually pretty hard to hurt as far as vehicles go, are very fast, are genereally able to strike first in any tank engagement while denying the enemy saves, and pack a lot of firepower.

That's why people like them.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 15:45

- For the same pricetag as a Hammerhead, we get 3 Assault BS3+ S8 AP-4 D6 shots instead of 1 Heavy BS4+ S10 AP-4 D6 (+ maybe some MW). Sure, the range is different, but who needs 72"...

- For the price of a Ravager, Necrons get 2 heavy destroyers. So 2 shots, BS3+ (sometimes 2+), S9, AP-4, D6. We trade -1 S for +1 shot. And we have more mobility, more wounds to protect the weapons, and a Inv save. So we're winning.

- Wave Serpents with TL bright lance have the same profile, with 1 less shot, a lot more durability, and transport capacity. So i'd say Wave Serpents are overall better (more polyvalent), but in the AT department Ravagers are better.

- I didn't bother to buy the Imperial Indexes (since i knew those would be the first codices out), but Space Marines anti-tank are much more expensive than ours (meaning they get super good survivability but have less shots).

The only faction that can compete with us in terms of how much long range Anti-tank power they can dish out for a reasonnable cost is Astra Militarum.

What makes Ravagers really shine, as you can see, is that it's the cheapest way in the game to get such a good Strength, AP and BS on such a fast and sturdy unit. 150pts is just so damn cheap for what it brings.

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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 15:46

What a rookie error on my part...the fact the Dark Lance is assault is quite a big player in this comparison totally agree.

Rather than try to compare apples and apples I was more so comparing what is our main tank against what is potentially a light tank in another army...which at first glance seemed just as strong.
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 15:49

So out of the Ravager, R.Jetfighter and the Void Bomber which is better to take in a general list?
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 15:54

Between RWJF and Ravager, it's a fair match : you lose 1 heavy shot for some poison, some torpedos, Hard to hit and more speed. A matter of personal preference really Smile

Void Bomber is a specialist unit that is very powerful, but much more expensive so he's not as reliable.

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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 15:58

But if you were going to take only one? Which would you lean towards?

Also you may be able to help me understand the rule a little better...the void bomb says 1D6 for every other model in the unit...does that mean 5D6 if the target has 10 models? It seems a very powerful weapon!
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 16:01

The bomb is one-use only, and you roll 1d6 per model (or 3d6 per monstruous model), up to 10d6. Every 3+ is a mortal wound. It's a wondeful weapon, that can even target a unit in CC.

If i had to take only one... are you playing Venoms or Raiders ? If you have other DL, i'd take a RWJF. If that vehicle was your only heavy AT, i'd take Ravager.

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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 16:11

Although not comparing apples with apples, I found out the other day that Razorbacks with TL Assault Cannons are disgustingly good against pretty much everything! 100 points for T7, 10W, 3+ and 12 S6, AP-1 shots is amazing value. Shove in Calgar for re-roll misses and they pretty much annihilate anything that gets within 24"!

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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 16:20

Both.

Our Dark Lances are very good, especially when on a vehicle since they become assault. This gives us a decent amount of speed, which speed means we can dictate when and where the fights take place.

The Pain Engines really leave so much to be desired this go around that they are (IMO) no competition to the Ravager.

Last game I played the Triple Lances one shot a Dread. There is also the fact that our Ravagers can fly. This allows us to hide them completely turn one in-case we don't get the first strike, and then hop over terrain to kill their targets.

I think they are both reasonably well  priced and balanced for what we get.

EDIT:
Lol - so I wrote the above and forgot to hit send earlier, so everyone has already covered that. I find the RWJ to be an amazing platform, and will typically take one of with two Ravagers. This spreads my threats out a bit and offers redundancy. I also find that the RWJ takes a lot more attention, leaving my ravagers pretty free to do their thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 17:05

Dark Elf Dave wrote:
But if you were going to take only one?  Which would you lean towards?

Also you may be able to help me understand the rule a little better...the void bomb says 1D6 for every other model in the unit...does that mean 5D6 if the target has 10 models?  It seems a very powerful weapon!
I'll generally second what Mppqlmd is selling, as I've found him to be a generally thoughtful and correct poster.

If I was only going to bring one flyer or heavy in a TAC list - I would tend to bring a Ravager with 3 dissies, as it would be very functional against multiple targets ranging from infantry blobs up to heavy tanks.

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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 17:20

Quote :

I'll generally second what Mppqlmd is selling, as I've found him to be a generally thoughtful and correct poster.
Wow, that's really nice Smile Thanks !

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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 21:58

Do you really think the void bomb is 1D6 per model? Because at first that's what I thought but then why wrote the rule as 1D6 for every other model? Why not say 1D6 per model which would make it clear...unless this has already been FAQ'd.

I'm interested in why the Jetfighter gets picked more than the Void Raven...the void bomb looks like the strongest weapon in our list, even though it is only 1 shot per turn. It seems as though the void bomb would take out a Terminator Squad, or 10 man Tac Squad or 20 Orks with relative ease.
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Mon Sep 04 2017, 22:24

The Void Mine will only deal up to 10 Mortal Wounds to a unit of Infantry, which is nothing to sneer at, but it's definitely not going to kill 10 Terminators or 20 Orks.

I run a Voidraven and two Jetfighters instead of 3 Ravagers, and like others have said it's just a preference. I like the durability that comes with Hard To Hit and I like being able to get behind enemy lines on Turn 1. Missiles aren't a solid substitute for a Dark Lance or a Disintegrator so you're trading damage output for a little more durability and versatility.

If I were going to run Ravagers it'd be for triple Disintegrators, since I can get Dark Lances in tons of other places.
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Tue Sep 05 2017, 00:09

Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Do you really think the void bomb is 1D6 per model? Because at first that's what I thought but then why wrote the rule as 1D6 for every other model? Why not say 1D6 per model which would make it clear...unless this has already been FAQ'd.

Yes, it's 3d6 for each monster or vehicle and 1d6 for every other model in the unit. In this case, other refers to the type, ie any model that is not a monster or vehicle. I agree it could have been worded better.

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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Tue Sep 05 2017, 00:27

I like lances. The assault rule on them and reasonable price make for a great vehicle based anti-tank weapon.

However, people often neglect to factor in that most AT is at 48" range or better to our 36", which means that while we are more maneuverable we need to be in order to get on an even footing. This does not make Lances worse, it just means we need to be very careful as we have about 2" of leeway between "I can zoom in and get the first shot" and "Oh Crap he's in range!". More if we advance of course, but that does get us the hit penalty and puts us on par with their moving accuracy, which then seriously threatens us due to that range.

Something to keep in mind.

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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Tue Sep 05 2017, 00:35

The biggest thing is each d6 isn't damage, it is a 3+ to hit and then a mortal wound is applied.

I take a mixture of ravagers and rwjf. And then use the rwjf as deepstrike bubble wrap, as nothing that deepstrike can assault them, which shores up the sides of my army on t1 and possibly t2 if I need it still, or they get in the enemies face, and cause a nuisance.

Has the change to objective taking effected how and people take fliers and how many they take compared to ravagers?
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Tue Sep 05 2017, 05:39

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I'm interested in why the Jetfighter gets picked more than the Void Raven...the void bomb looks like the strongest weapon in our list, even though it is only 1 shot per turn. It seems as though the void bomb would take out a Terminator Squad, or 10 man Tac Squad or 20 Orks with relative ease.

It's 1 shot PER GAME, not per turn. Smile

The reason why the JF gets picked more than the Void Raven is the following : voidraven are much more expensive (if you pay for the missiles. But if you don't, well, he has no missile ^^).
What's great about the RWJF is the efficiency/price ratio.

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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Tue Sep 05 2017, 06:41

As for the Ravager - I find the best thing about them that they have FLY and assault weapons. You can bump a Razorback or any other tank to keep it from shooting next turn. You cant do that to a ravager...
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Tue Sep 05 2017, 07:16

Mppqlmd wrote:
Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I'm interested in why the Jetfighter gets picked more than the Void Raven...the void bomb looks like the strongest weapon in our list, even though it is only 1 shot per turn. It seems as though the void bomb would take out a Terminator Squad, or 10 man Tac Squad or 20 Orks with relative ease.

It's 1 shot PER GAME, not per turn. Smile

The reason why the JF gets picked more than the Void Raven is the following : voidraven are much more expensive (if you pay for the missiles. But if you don't, well, he has no missile ^^).
What's great about the RWJF is the efficiency/price ratio.

I love my dual Razorwings (I preordered them when the models first came out and have never fielded a DE list without them since I got them assembled. Hell, they even migrated over to my craftworld eldar list from time to time!)

In 7th their loadout made them a mixed bag, as whatever you shot at half of your weapons would be wasted. In 8th, they are able to effectively engage any target, and carry with them a toolbox that works in any conceivable situation, while whichever gun is less effective against your main target remains able to target whatever it is good at hurting!



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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Tue Sep 05 2017, 08:07

Sorry Mppqlmd I did realise it was 1 shot per game not turn...poorly written reply from me.

And also lcfr I did say 5 Terminators and by my calculation 5D6 Mortal wounds on a 3+ works out at roughly 4 dead Terminators but I am quite new to Mathhammer so I'd happily stand corrected by you guys...I am just trying to get a better understanding of my choices in regards to our tanks as it were in 8th (RWJ, Void Raven & Ravager).

I accept now that you couldnt take out 20 Orks, seems the Void Bomb would most likely cause 9 wounds at best but I still think this is great and also very fun to play with.

Now that in 8th the flyers start on the board do you find they are taken out or crippled turn one these days? You can hide a Ravager but you cant hide a flyer.
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Tue Sep 05 2017, 09:11

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

And also lcfr I did say 5 Terminators and by my calculation 5D6 Mortal wounds on a 3+ works out at roughly 4 dead Terminators but I am quite new to Mathhammer so I'd happily stand corrected by you guys...I am just trying to get a better understanding of my choices in regards to our tanks as it were in 8th (RWJ, Void Raven & Ravager).

Unfortunately, you rol 5d6 and for each 3+ you deal a mortal wound. so on average just under 4 mortal wounds (or 2 dead terminators since they have 2 wounds each).


I find that flyers are not that often crippled in turn 1. The additional -1 to hit and protection from turn 1 charges makes them more survivable, and usually other targets suffer more.
Then again I don't really have terrain where I can hide a complete ravager behind either and then the ravager is usually the target.
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Tue Sep 05 2017, 09:34

I have massively read that wrong then! LOL

I thought it was 5 models = 5D6 hits and then roll for mortal wounds...no wonder I thought it was such a good weapon ;-)
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Tue Sep 05 2017, 09:35

I find that the void mine is pretty underwhelming to look at. It is rather expensive, and it has a very limited number of cost effective targets.

Against light infantry it will kill a decent number, but even in the best case scenario you are doing, what, 40 points of damage to a squad of guardsmen?

So light infantry it is effective, but better used elsewhere.

Against vehicles and monsters, because of how brood/squadron rules tend to work these days, in most instances you are rolling 3d6 against a single target for a maximum of 3 mortal wounds. Against anything heavy that is truly pathetic and a waste of your time and points, due to how many wounds vehicles and monsters tend to have in this day and age.

So now let us look at superheavy infantry (TEQ and similar). Well, these tend to be fielded in fairly small squads and have multiple wounds per model, so odds on you will not do much damage and are better off with void lances/scythes.

That leaves us with MEQ, which is where this weapon excels. They come in big enough squads to get the benefits of dropping the bomb on them, each mortal wound causes a model to go away, and they are valuable enough that dropping the bomb means something.

While this is great (and a good MEQ killer is nothing to sniff at), this does mean that the void mine (which you are paying rather a lot for) is only a "good" choice against armies with MEQ-like infantry, valuable, hard to kill with splinter weapons, and expensive enough that their loss means something while also not being so tough that your void mine only kills a single dude.


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PostSubject: Re: Is the Ravager over hyped?   Tue Sep 05 2017, 10:32

FuelDrop wrote:
That leaves us with MEQ, which is where this weapon excels. They come in big enough squads to get the benefits of dropping the bomb on them, each mortal wound causes a model to go away, and they are valuable enough that dropping the bomb means something.

While this is great (and a good MEQ killer is nothing to sniff at), this does mean that the void mine (which you are paying rather a lot for) is only a "good" choice against armies with MEQ-like infantry, valuable, hard to kill with splinter weapons, and expensive enough that their loss means something while also not being so tough that your void mine only kills a single dude.

I fight against Death Guard a lot. I suspect I may end up getting a Voidraven.

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