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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Second box of scourges.   Thu Aug 31 2017, 20:44

So how do I kit them? I have 5 with 4x DL currently. So all shard carbines and make a unit of 10 or another unit of 5+ 4DL?
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Shadowharte
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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Thu Aug 31 2017, 23:46

I have a question. Why is everyone running DL on them now? Don't they get minus to hit after deep strike? Besides that, I wouldn't make them a unit of ten, wastes the 4 slots for special/heavy weapons
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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Fri Sep 01 2017, 00:40

I'm very far from an expert, but I believe the dark lances are generally considered the best option for damage output. With with the new changes the main 2 options to consider are blasters and dark lances. Blasters have 18" range and D3 damage, whereas for 5 extra points dark lances are 36" range and D6 damage, suffering from -1 to hit if the scourge moves, which they may not have to do, thanks to the long range
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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Fri Sep 01 2017, 02:21

Plus I already have 10 blasters in my army...
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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Fri Sep 01 2017, 06:38

A DL hitting on a 4+ will do 1.11 damage to a Rhino. A Blaster hitting on a 3+ will do .89. It's really just a matter of math...plus, aside from DL and maybe Blasters, their weapons options are unequivocal crap.

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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Fri Sep 01 2017, 11:57

Such a shame that Heat Lances are S6 because at S7 I think we would be using them a lot more on Scourges...but they would still need to be less points. 25 pts a weapon on squishy Scourge is not a great idea.

Our Melta weapon is just awful compared to the standard Melta. We have better range but then the two units we can equip it on are Scourge and Reavers who are either deep striking or very fast. S6 suffers against most vehicles. -5 AP is good but -4 still leaves the vast majority of vehicles with no save. So the advantages are barely necessary and the disadvantages really do make this weapon inferior and all for an additional 8 pts!

The stats were not well thought out at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Fri Sep 01 2017, 13:29

@TheBaconPope wrote:
A DL hitting on a 4+ will do 1.11 damage to a Rhino. A Blaster hitting on a 3+ will do .89. It's really just a matter of math...plus, aside from DL and maybe Blasters, their weapons options are unequivocal crap.
That is math, but it's not necessarily the correct math to look at considering that the real question is hits and cost, both of which the Blaster will perform better at.
I would also note that Blasters are very useful for Crons, so I rather like the ability to drop 4 in the backfield on a whim.

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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Fri Sep 01 2017, 21:34

Magnetize and have both available! I shamelessly tailor my Scourge loadout when up against Necrons. frak quantum shielding.

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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Fri Sep 01 2017, 21:39

@Thor665 wrote:

That is math, but it's not necessarily the correct math to look at considering that the real question is hits and cost, both of which the Blaster will perform better at.
I would also note that Blasters are very useful for Crons, so I rather like the ability to drop 4 in the backfield on a whim.

I don't think blasters are better to fight Necrons.
The idea that you want to deal less damage is only correct if you can compensate with more shots. If you have the choice between 1d6 and 1d3 damage, you chose 1d6, even against Quantum Shielding. Because when your opponent fails a roll, Dark Lances will get the job done, and Blasters won't.

Necrons vehicle also regain 1HP per turn, so you have to shoot to kill. Blasters don't kill, Haywire blasters don't kill. So you basically have to shoot DL, and pray.

Or you use dissies, because dissies are tailored to destroy Quantum Shieldings.

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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Fri Sep 01 2017, 23:45

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:

That is math, but it's not necessarily the correct math to look at considering that the real question is hits and cost, both of which the Blaster will perform better at.
I would also note that Blasters are very useful for Crons, so I rather like the ability to drop 4 in the backfield on a whim.

I don't think blasters are better to fight Necrons.
The idea that you want to deal less damage is only correct if you can compensate with more shots. If you have the choice between 1d6 and 1d3 damage, you chose 1d6, even against Quantum Shielding. Because when your opponent fails a roll, Dark Lances will get the job done, and Blasters won't.
If your opponent fails the roll both get the job done, one just does it slightly slower.
That said, statistically, the Necron is more likely to fail the roll when the needed number is more constrained, which makes Blasters more reliable at causing damage than Dark Lances. It's the same reason Dissies are arguably superior to Lances. Reliability removes chance, removal of chance helps you control the game.

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Necrons vehicle also regain 1HP per turn, so you have to shoot to kill. Blasters don't kill, Haywire blasters don't kill. So you basically have to shoot DL, and pray.
I agree you need to shoot to kill (or at least strongly disable) but I fail to see how Blasters are unable to kill. If a Lance can kill, certainly two Blasters can - and do so better.
So...to-may-to to-mah-to, yes?

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Or you use dissies, because dissies are tailored to destroy Quantum Shieldings.
I agree Dissies are excellent vs. Necrons (and, indeed, most things), if you think that though I'm not sure why you think Blasters are unable to kill. Dissies also, unlike Blasters, are not an option for our infantry, where the question does become one of Lance or Blaster. On vehicles I tend to favor lances, but assuredly am also bringing Dissies.

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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Sat Sep 02 2017, 00:01

2 blasters are better than a DL against Necron Vehicles, that's for sure.
But 1 blaster isn't better than 1 DL. And since that's the choice you're left with with, say, Scourges...

The problem with blasters is that you will deal damage more frequently, but that damage will always be low (and you got 1 shot per weapon, which is bad), and healed of quickly by Living Metal. With Dark Lances, you either get a low-roll (thus equivalent to a blaster, and having good chances of passing) or a high-roll (which will probably fail, but if it succeeds will accomplish a lot more).

So Dark Lances aren't the best buy to kill Necron Vehicles. Dissies are. But Dark Lances are better than Blasters because, with 4 DL Scourges have at least a chance of killing it (or burning your opponent's CPs). 4 Blasters have practically 0 chance of killing it.

Whatmore, considering the amount of S4 shots that a Necron Vehicle can deliver, you only got one turn to kill it if you're at 18". Blasters will fail, and scourges will die. Dark Lances have more time to try, due to range 36".

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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Sat Sep 02 2017, 00:38

@Mppqlmd wrote:
The problem with blasters is that you will deal damage more frequently, but that damage will always be low (and you got 1 shot per weapon, which is bad), and healed of quickly by Living Metal. With Dark Lances, you either get a low-roll (thus equivalent to a blaster, and having good chances of passing) or a high-roll (which will probably fail, but if it succeeds will accomplish a lot more).
This is where you lose me though - up until damage (and ignoring unit cost) Blasters and DLs are functionally identical for DSing Scourges except that the blasters will hit roughly 16% more.

Even presuming they hit equal; you have x hits causing either d3 or d6 damage.
With the Blaster you generally appear to agree that most of x will go through.
With the lance you are agreeing that maybe roughly half doesn't (and the half that is more likely is doing the Blaster damage that you say isn't good enough to matter)
But that roughly should still translate to the Blasters doing either the same or better than the lances for causing damage, yeah?

@Mppqlmd wrote:
So Dark Lances aren't the best buy to kill Necron Vehicles. Dissies are. But Dark Lances are better than Blasters because, with 4 DL Scourges have at least a chance of killing it (or burning your opponent's CPs). 4 Blasters have practically 0 chance of killing it.
I frankly wouldn't give a single unit of Scourges much odds to kill any vehicle solo - but will agree with you that the lances at least have a chance.

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Whatmore, considering the amount of S4 shots that a Necron Vehicle can deliver, you only got one turn to kill it if you're at 18". Blasters will fail, and scourges will die. Dark Lances have more time to try, due to range 36".
I guess that is true - for myself I tend to rely on target saturation more than trying to outrange things. I don't think the game allows for very effective movement along threat bubble edges anymore due to the enhanced ability of all units to move and fire. But I can't deny lances are better at that than Blasters, so if that matters for a given strategy they are a clear winning choice there.

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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Sat Sep 02 2017, 10:45

Let's do some math here. Never did that one before, so i don't know the results in advance Smile

Let's compare blasters wounds against Quantum shielding, and DL wounds against Quantum shielding.

Blasters have :
- 1/3*6/6 to deal 1 damage = 0.33 average dmg
- 1/3*5/6 to deal 2 damage = 0.55 average dmg
- 1/3*4/6 to deal 3 damage = 0.666 average dmg

Average damage of a blaster wound (so after hitting and wounding, and failed saves) against Quantum Shielding = 1.54

DL have :
- 1/6*6/6 to deal 1 damage = 0.16 average damage
- 1/6*5/6 to deal 2 damage = 0.27
- 1/6*4/6 to deal 3 damage = 0.33
- 1/6*3/6 to deal 4 damage = 0.33
- 1/6*2/6 to deal 5 damage = 0.27
- 1/6*1/6 to deal 6 damage = 0.16

Average damage from a DL wound against Quantum Shielding = 1.52, going down to 1.27 when they move.

So it looks, quite surprisingly, that blasters deal 0.02 extra damage on average. So they are roughly the same, with the DL being more expensive and twice the range, and the blaster being assault.

So i was wrong, i thought the DL would give a higher result than the blaster. Amusingly, they are almost identical, so the only real difference is range VS assault and points.

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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Mon Sep 04 2017, 02:55

And im still scratching my head... One group of 10 or two groups of dark light blaster or dark lance.
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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Mon Sep 04 2017, 12:17

Group of 10 if you want them to survive a turn and you are using them for marine clean up.

I runn5 with blasters, I like them. They are just for hunting demolition teams in the backfield or multi wound non vehicles

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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Mon Sep 04 2017, 15:18

@Subsanity wrote:
And im still scratching my head... One group of 10 or two groups of dark light blaster or dark lance.
That all depends on the composition of your list and what you need the Scourges to do.
I think 5 w. 4x Blaster is the current optimal build overall.

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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Mon Sep 04 2017, 22:24

I have heard regarding using scourges for AI that there are "better" options available then bare bone scourges.

Someone cares to enlighten me what the better option would be? (competitive choices) I can only think of venoms with 5 kabalite warriors. At 18 inch they can pump out 17 poison shots for 130 points.
5 scourges for 70 points pump out already 15 shots... pretty impressive for cleaning up infantry when needed
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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Tue Sep 05 2017, 01:55

At 12" for 70 points the Scourges put out 15 shots and the Warriors in a Venom at 130 put out 22 and also have the built in durability of a Venom, that allows them to take 5 wounds with *no* loss of effectiveness while the 5 wounds on the Scourges would mean the squad is wiped.

But, all that said, let's even just talk Scourges, since that's the concept of this topic.

5 scourges w. shard carbines - 70 points
5 scourges w, s.cannons - 130 points
5 scourges w. Blasters - 130 points
(In all the below numbers I will not count the 5th shard carbine, as its effect will be identical for all three units)

Shard Carbines vs. GEQ - 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2.66 after saves (.038 per point spent)
Shard Carbines vs. MEQ - 8 hits, 4 wounds, 1.33 after saves (.019 per point spent)

Splinter Cannons vs. GEQ - 16 hits, 8 wounds, 5.33 after saves (.041 per point spent)
Splinter Cannons vs. MEQ - 16 hits, 8 wounds, 2.66 after saves (.02 per point spent)

Blasters vs. GEQ - 2.66 hits, 1.33 wounds, 1.33 after saves (.01 per point spent)
Blasters vs. MEQ - 2.66 hits, 1.33 wounds, 1.33 after saves (.01 per point spent)

So, as these numbers show, the best infantry killing capability for Scourges is to take Splinter Cannons and be within 18", the shard carbine's affordability cannot compete with the greater firepower of the s.cannon. The Blaster itself actually competes pretty well as an infantry killer (especially against MEQ) and has the added benefit, of course, of inflicting multiple wounds (which is optimal for the Rowboat Marines and, of course, is a vastly superior anti-vehicle weapon.

The shard carbine is affordable and okay at killing infantry, but is not as good all around as the Blaster nor as good at killing infantry as the s.cannon - and exists mostly just as a way to shave points if you want an anti-infantry tool but can't afford 130 points.

I would still tend to favor Venoms though, were it me.

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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Tue Sep 05 2017, 05:36

I would advice never to that the Splinter cannon on scourges. You would gain the same extra shots by buying more scourges, as it is almost the same price. 10 scourges : 140pts for 30 shots. 5 Scourges with 4 SC : 130 for 27 shots.
And the barebones scourges got extra bodies, more control for objectives, more CC ability...

Blasters are cool, but mathhammer has proven that even when hitting on 4+, the DL is better due to having twice as much damage. When firing at 2W/3W infantry, the blaster will often fail you with poor damage roll, the DL less so. Since it has twice the range and twice the dmg, it is well worth the extra 5 points.

To me there are 2 valid layouts : barebones for AI (which is the cheapest way to get poison shots at 18", paying 4,66 points per shot) or DL for elite/tank hunting.

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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Tue Sep 05 2017, 06:36

If I may add, I find Lances on scourges bad in real battles. I fight a lot of -1 to hits and that hurts the 4+ hit Lances badly. They look fine, even better than blasters in a vacuum of math. But they WILL fail you when facing anything with -1 to hit.
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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Tue Sep 05 2017, 08:27

I like this topic, I have some Scourge and have been working out how best to use them as I think the models are great...but it does seem as though there may be better alternatives in the list.

Take a Ravager before you take DL Scourge and take Blasterborn on a Venom before you take Blaster Scourge.

Tactically deepstriking could win you a game and they should be ok for deepstriking near an objective and clearing a weakened infantry unit that may be holding it. But would Mandrakes be better at that job?
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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Tue Sep 05 2017, 09:16

Depends on the job.

I prefer mandrakes for most clearing a weakened infantry unit after a deep strike.

Scourges are more for clearing a hiding tank/ multiwound models.
While ravagers and blasterborn are thougher, they deal less damage for the price ticket and having at least 1 unit that can deepstrike with multidamage weapons means opponents have to spread out to stop deep strike. And the more spread out my opponent is, the easier it is to kill his units one at a time.
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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Tue Sep 05 2017, 09:37

So would Scourge ever be a good counter strike to deepstriking Terminators?
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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Tue Sep 05 2017, 10:18

A bit out of topic but since the box doesnt contain 4 dark lances are you allowed to swap the weapon meanings. I mean can you have 4 scourges with shard carbines and assume they have dark lances while the one with the real dark lance is assumed to have the shard carbine...?
As long as the models themselves are easily distinguished you can do that no?
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PostSubject: Re: Second box of scourges.   Tue Sep 05 2017, 10:51

I'm not sure how people are finding it in 8th but proxy models surely can't be frowned upon now that the defending player chooses the casualty...all players will play the same way in that the squad leader and heavy/special weapons are the last 3 casualties.
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