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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 11:30

Hopefully in the right place. I've been away from the forum for quite a while. Came back to see how the true kin had been treated in 8th edition. What I've heard so far was not particularly promising.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 11:51

its not that bad.

We haven't really changed much at all, but what is important to remember is that every army has been reduced to a basic level for the new edition until new Codecies come out.
So although we haven't improved, everyone else has been dragged down to our level.

THe real changes for us are that grenades don't matter in combat anymore, so Incubi are really good now. Mandrakes have become amazing, and our transports have become tougher. Not actually tougher, but the Venom is harder to hit, and both have Flickerfields as standard.
Power From Pain has also improved, making us all thougher (6+ FNP from turn one) and making us better in combat.

I would say we're decent at the moment, and definitely not in a low tier.
I have hope for the future Codex release.
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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 12:46

Everything has changed. Cover no longer matters.

Our vehicles are now resilient. They're still comparatively fragile but you can now expect them to survive some firepower. Also they're still open-topped, other armies' transports lost fire points entirely.

Wracks are troops. Wyches are still useless despite the hype. Kabalites are still the big winner and now 35 pts a squad with sybarite included making them very spammable. Reavers got hit with the nerf bat and are now a bad choice (rip my 15 finished reaver models)

Razorwing Jetfighters got buffed a lot and are now a great versatile unit that fits in every list. Ravagers are now very competitive, possibly our best unit and a list consisting entirely of spam ravagers is a valid choice. The new damage mechanics mean disintegrator cannons are often but not always the better choice.

Poison got worse because other weapons got better. The splinter cannon and shredder got nerfed for some reason.

We now have to take a HQ (rip Lhamaean too) and they are unfortunately still just as bad as before.

Here's a quality 8e battle report:
https://www.tabletoptactics.tv/battle-reports/new-warhammer-40k-8th-edition-battle-report-drukhari-vs-tau-2000pts/
if you remember Lawrence who is playing is a guy who took 3 tournaments in a row with Dark Eldar in late 7th edition, they also have newer reports but they are paywalled unfortunately including one where they do very well vs Guilliman + Ultramarine flyer spam

I think we got a lot better.

I'm genuinely surprised by the negativity here since battle reports seem to think they're excellent, a lot of people have posted how they've won many games with DE in 8e, and I myself actually won every single game of 8e I played with mono DE until I tried an experimental list that consisted mostly of incubi and even then it was a narrow game and everything went right for the opponent. I had real trouble winning with DE without allies in late 7th edition. I guess the game changed but the forum didn't.
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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 12:48

I had feared that reavers would be nerfed into the ground after caltrop shenanigans in 7th. That's 12 models I'll likely need to replace
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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 13:28

For now, although they're not unforgivably bad like wyches, just pretty bad or more like not the optimal choice. Also I hope you haven't put haywire blasters on anything because those are now the worst choice even vs vehicles.

But don't sell anything - codexes so far have rebalanced overpriced things like how Plague Marines got a huge points drop and more wargear options once Chaos Codex landed.
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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 13:32

I intend to keep everything I have, and as for haywire blasters, I went to the effort of converting some so scourge team 1 would have 4 of them. How are the coven units doing without their awesome formations?
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 13:56

Don't listen to the heretic!

Reavers are actually better now. A second wound, a better armour save, and although they don't fly over things anymore, they cause mortal wounds either on a charge, or when an opponent tries to flee from combat. They also have really good speed and a decent array of weapons. Reavers are good.
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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 14:05

They do still literally fly over things but now advance = turbo-boost for less. I guess maybe I should have said they're overcosted rather than bad because if they were cheaper I would use them too, but at the current price (110pts for the old 3-bike blaster-caltrops) I would rather take something else this edition. But everything being good or bad is a matter of points cost anyway. There are differing opinions on whether they are good.

I'll let somebody else fill you in on the covens since I have no experience, Haemonculi however are a very relevant HQ choice since they buff transports and Reapers with +1 toughness as well as buffing coven dudes.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 15:29

If you'd like some breakdown on individual units, I'd recommend perusing this thread
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t16206-studs-and-duds

I'll go ahead and say that we're okay..ish

Scourges are good, Ravagers and our Fliers are good, Mandrakes are great.

But if you look at the Tournament listings, DE aren't doing so hot. We're still usable, but we have a lot of holes that are really costing us this edition.

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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 15:47

There's also the issue of why would you ever take DE over Ynnari ie. PFP over SFD even if our units are competitive.

But then being at the very top of the pile is actually not fun in the larger 40k community. If you ever played the cheesiest 7e Ynnari you probably know how unfun it is when your army gets credited for your win and also when your opponents get unsportsmanlike about it. Being mediocre as an army is great, then you get to shine as a commander.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 21:49

Lord Johan wrote:
But then being at the very top of the pile is actually not fun in the larger 40k community. If you ever played the cheesiest 7e Ynnari you probably know how unfun it is when your army gets credited for your win and also when your opponents get unsportsmanlike about it. Being mediocre as an army is great, then you get to shine as a commander.
This is very true.
When i said i was playing Eldar the other day, someone "Tsssed" me. Then he understood i was talking about DE, and he apologized. It's crazy how people judge you as a powergamer just because of the army you're playing.
I mean, even T'au and Necrons have fluff and background Very Happy

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Mikoneo
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 23:24

I see what you mean on reavers being overcosted, especially after seeing the harlequin starweavers as 5 points more per model with an extra wound and 4++
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 23:32

[quote="Mppqlmd"]
Lord Johan wrote:
...even T'au and Necrons have fluff and background Very Happy

Just not tyranids... Razz
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Tue Aug 29 2017, 23:53

PS, dont change to much of your army just yet, we are in the middle of a transition, we dont even have a Codex yet, the trend right now is from Index to Codex to make MANY things much cheaper and more viable, so reavers might be good again within the next 4-6 months (whenever our codex is release).

8th ed was such a huge change everyone got temporary rules, they are very basic rules for unit profiles, they are called "Index".

The Aeldari Index comes with rules for all units for Eldar, DE, Harlequins and Ynnari (A mix Eldar Faction with its own army rule).

Mikoneo wrote:
I see what you mean on reavers being overcosted, especially after seeing the harlequin starweavers as 5 points more per model with an extra wound and 4++

Reavers are IMO "one of" the most overcosted units in the game atm.

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Deris87
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Wed Aug 30 2017, 01:05

To be fair, Harlequins are universally acknowledge to be pretty damn broken. I agree Reavers need some tuning up, but comparing them to Skyweavers won't give you a very accurate assessment of their relative worth in the overall meta.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8th Edition changes   Wed Aug 30 2017, 01:25

Deris87 wrote:
To be fair, Harlequins are universally acknowledge to be pretty damn broken. I agree Reavers need some tuning up, but comparing them to Skyweavers won't give you a very accurate assessment of their relative worth in the overall meta.

They are basically Windriders with -1 to hit 4++ and without shadowseer support, they are what they are, i dont think skyweavers are op, i actually have stop playing with them there are better things for the points.

For 15pts more they get -1 to hit and 4++.

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