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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Sun Aug 27 2017, 18:02

Sort of like how all of our poison shooting wasn't nerfed this edition, it just compares more unfavorably to bolters than it ever has
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Sun Aug 27 2017, 20:09

Yeah, we got screwed with splinter cannons, if they dont go back to 6 shots or drop in cost to 3pts im going to never use them again.

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Deris87
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Sun Aug 27 2017, 23:48

Grotesques were pretty fantastic in 7th ed, even before the Grotesquerie. They definitely took a relative hit in 8th, but I think that just puts them into the "good" category rather than being exceptional. I don't think poison has fared even that well though, and it was a little marginal already in 7th (it certainly didn't stack up well compared to Bladestorm).

Our poison has stayed the same while monster wounds have more than doubled on average, and other weapons have gotten a relative boost in the form of wounding higher toughness models more easily (usually on a 5+). Warriors in Raiders have the double whammy of having their shooting effectiveness fairly heavily reduced (no Overwatch, no Splinter Racks, no falling back and shooting from inside). Given everything else that's changed around them, their current rules just make them ineffective vs most infantry and redundant and useless against monsters when compared to Lances.


What I'd like to see in the codex is a move away from wounding on a fixed value, and do something like what Death Guard's poison weapons do now-- S4 with re-rolls to wound. That'd certainly give our shooting more teeth and a better defined/more useful role as an anti-infantry weapon. It also makes sense to me from a fluff perspective that basic Kabalite weapons would be geared towards hunting humanoids, since that's their primary prey.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Mon Aug 28 2017, 00:22

Our poison did not stay they same tho, splinter cannons are 1/2 the shots now.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Mon Aug 28 2017, 01:10

You keep on that point (which isn't really accurate anyway) but it's only one part of the problem with why splinter cannons are not worth their points--and personally I don't find it to be nearly as big of an issue as the damage output. If a Splinter Cannon were actually only 3 shots but S9 AP-4, I'm sure you'd consider that worth taking, right? How about S5 AP-1 re-roll to wound Rapid Fire 3 36" for the same 15pts? There's lots of different levers here that could be worked to make splinter cannons (and splinter in general) a better weapon option, because really there's problems with splinter weapons as a whole category and not just with the cannon.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Mon Aug 28 2017, 01:56

Well when most other armies got more shots due to TL and we get less while in more cases a TL bolter, Las Cannon, Assault etc.. etc.. etc... are better than splinter cannons, many of the TL high value weapons also are same cost if not cheaper (there are a couple that are more but they have ap).

When you look at them and compare, we got screwed in Anti-infantry shooting.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Mon Aug 28 2017, 04:25

I'm not sure I see the relevance of the TL comparison. TL-ed weapons have always been better than non-TL weapons and have always cost more (on average). They're now even better, but cost even more.   It's not any kind of apples to apples comparison.  In any case, I agree we're relatively screwed on anti-infantry shooting, but the reasons our anti-infantry shooting sucks are deeper than the fact that the Splinter Cannon has to be within 18'' to get the same number of shots it used to. Heck, a moving infantry model with a splinter cannon has two more shots than it used to. The issue is that even with 6 shots at 36'' all the time I still wouldn't take a Splinter Cannon unless they also dropped the cost at least 5pts to put it more on par with a heavy bolter.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Mon Aug 28 2017, 09:04

Quote :
If a Splinter Cannon were actually only 3 shots but S9 AP-4, I'm sure you'd consider that worth taking, right?
What's the point of this comparison ? Amish is comparing Splinter cannons to what they used to be (more shots), you are comparing them to lascannons...

Quote :
TL-ed weapons have always been better than non-TL weapons and have always cost more (on average)

I think the rant about the TL being so good is because we used to have twin linked on every splinter weapon, and we lost it.

Trust me, if we still had splinter racks on Raiders, and you could dish 48 shots from every gunboat, we would be much, much better in the AI game.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Mon Aug 28 2017, 09:56

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
If a Splinter Cannon were actually only 3 shots but S9 AP-4, I'm sure you'd consider that worth taking, right?
What's the point of this comparison ? Amish is comparing Splinter cannons to what they used to be (more shots), you are comparing them to lascannons...

Quote :
TL-ed weapons have always been better than non-TL weapons and have always cost more (on average)

I think the rant about the TL being so good is because we used to have twin linked on every splinter weapon, and we lost it.

Trust me, if we still had splinter racks on Raiders, and you could dish 48 shots from every gunboat, we would be much, much better in the AI game.

Indeed.

One major part of the change to twin linked is that many armies had access to large quantities of twin linked. practically every bike other than ours, for instance. Many tanks had twin linked primary or secondary weapons, meaning that their firepower has significantly improved even if their accuracy dropped.

We, on the other hand, had most of our twin linked coming from Splinter Racks, with the Talos, the Venom, and the Razorwing Jetfighter being the exceptions... and the latter two always switched for Splinter Cannons. So losing racks and getting nothing in exchange feels like a nasty blow when everyone else is getting more shots... in some cases with multiple shooting phases adding insult to injury.

Splinter Racks returning, either in more shots or reroll form, would be most welcome.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Mon Aug 28 2017, 14:24

@merse24 wrote:
Below is a link to the list posted on BOLS

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/08/40k-the-unstoppable-list-wgc2017.html

Neat list. Unrelated but I wonder if a similar list done with aeldari would be any good?

Basically you would have several supreme command detachments of Ynnari, like
1. Yvraine + 5 Archons with just agonizers
2. Yncarne, Eldrad, Fuegan, a solitaire etc. and fill to 2000 pts to taste with smiting farseers or shooty autarchs or harlequin dudes for melee. Point being the opponent then needs to shoot at the semi-useless 58pts archons with their 2+ invuln before getting to shoot at anything else - sort of like a culexus but less shooty and triggers soulbursts.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Mon Aug 28 2017, 15:01

Ran a similar thing as one of my first games of 8th ed.

Eldrad, Mary Sue and the Avatar of Ynnead with Archons, Shadowseers and a Solitaire filing the blank.
This was before the Ynnari restriction. I think Eldrad, the Warlocks and maybe an Archon were made Ynnari, not sure though.

Turn 1; Everything advances up the board, the Solitaire Blitzes. throw all the buffs at the Solitaire and Doom the heck out of my opponents commander in the psychic phase (I recall having 1 Shadowseer Mirror-Path another Shadowseer so that THAT Shadowseer was in range of Mirror-Pathing the Solitaire). Followed by a wall of smite hitting 1 Unit and dropping it to a low model count.

Solitaire multi-charges the Doomed character and the Unit that was smited, manages to kill both. Character dies first, Yncarne spawns and then gets a Soulburst charge from the Marines dying to the Solitaire next.

Yncarne wrecks some face and my opponent was left staring at a psychic battery in the backline, all of which were rocking Invulns and a very serious CC threat sitting right in his face.

Aeldari-character spam was declared broken by my group shortly after this game.

I haven't tried it since.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Mon Aug 28 2017, 15:36

Uh ... Isn't smite the only psychic power you can use more than once in a psychic phase? So mirror-pathing more than once a psychic phase isn't possible ... Or am I missing some part of the psychic phase rules? I don't play psychers and I noone in my play group really does either so I'm going offa memory of the one time I read through it when the BRB first came out.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Mon Aug 28 2017, 15:40

Match play, yes you can only cast Smite more than once, there might be a character that lets you cast the same one again but in general only smite.

In open play or narrative they are different rules.

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Mon Aug 28 2017, 15:46

Pretty sure we were playing some blend of matched and open play.

Points values were used, as was matched play deployment and such, but we were using Open Play psychic rules.

Like I said, one of the first games of 8th.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Mon Aug 28 2017, 16:18

Oh lol, w/e is more fun for you guys Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Tue Aug 29 2017, 04:49

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
If a Splinter Cannon were actually only 3 shots but S9 AP-4, I'm sure you'd consider that worth taking, right?
What's the point of this comparison ? Amish is comparing Splinter cannons to what they used to be (more shots), you are comparing them to lascannons...

Exactly the point I stated in the post. To emphasize that splinter cannons (and rifles and shardcarbines) sucking is not specifically a function of their number of shots, yet the number of shots is the thing Amish brings up in every thread. If splinter cannons went to being assault 6 36'' I still wouldn't take them without some other stat boost or points reduction, because their damage output is still pretty crap.

Quote :
I think the rant about the TL being so good is because we used to have twin linked on every splinter weapon, and we lost it.

Trust me, if we still had splinter racks on Raiders, and you could dish 48 shots from every gunboat, we would be much, much better in the AI game.

Agreed, but all those twin-linked weapon platforms are paying a lot more than they used to as well. I'd love to see Splinter Racks make a comeback when the codex drops, but if it still functions by twin-linking splinter weapons you can guarantee it's going to be a whole lot more expensive than it used to be. And as much as I love Warriors in Raiders thematically, there's something to be said for wanting Splinter weapons to be good option outside of a Raider too. Certainly Scourges and Venoms would benefit from Shardcarbines and Splinter Cannons to be more viable in their own right.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Tue Aug 29 2017, 05:00

Quote :
If splinter cannons went to being assault 6 36'' I still wouldn't take them without some other stat boost or points reduction, because their damage output is still pretty crap.

As I've said in other threads, there's generally three things that separate "upgraded" guns (Heavy Bolters, Shuriken Cannons, Heavy Stubbers, etc), those being strength, rate of fire, and AP. Most have all three in some form, but taking two is also a possibility. The Splinter Cannon has rate of fire, sure, but there is nothing but the number of dice thrown to distinguish it. I think this was a problem in 7th as well, but it was mitigated by the fact that on one platform (The Venom) it was effective. Essentially, it was worth 10 points in 7th, and that was because it exponentially increased rate of fire and range, on a platform with Relentless. Now, Venoms have been hit hard by their nerf, so the shortcomings on other units are becoming more apparent. Cutting the price, quite frankly in half, is necessary to even make that usable. To make them viable, it needs some way to make it more lethal than a Splinter Rifle.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Tue Aug 29 2017, 08:52

@Deris87 wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
If a Splinter Cannon were actually only 3 shots but S9 AP-4, I'm sure you'd consider that worth taking, right?
What's the point of this comparison ? Amish is comparing Splinter cannons to what they used to be (more shots), you are comparing them to lascannons...

Exactly the point I stated in the post. To emphasize that splinter cannons (and rifles and shardcarbines) sucking is not specifically a function of their number of shots, yet the number of shots is the thing Amish brings up in every thread. If splinter cannons went to being assault 6 36'' I still wouldn't take them without some other stat boost or points reduction, because their damage output is still pretty crap.


I brought it up due to this comment, im not trying to bring it up every topic, but if someone says something i will too.


@Deris87 wrote:

Our poison has stayed the same while monster wounds have more than doubled on average, and other weapons have gotten a relative boost in the form of wounding higher toughness models more easily (usually on a 5+). Warriors in Raiders have the double  whammy of having their shooting effectiveness fairly heavily reduced (no Overwatch, no Splinter Racks, no falling back and shooting from inside). Given everything else that's changed around them, their current rules just make them ineffective vs most infantry and redundant and useless against monsters when compared to Lances.

He is true that wounds have double and tripled in many cases (even Rhnio's tripled) the point is our poison did not stay the same, where everything went up in wounds AND other armies mostly went up in amount of shots (thanks to TL), we DE did not, we actually got nerf and i think we are the only army to do so.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Tue Aug 29 2017, 17:40

@Archon_91 wrote:
Or at the very least make the Liquifier gun and medusae eye-burst auto hits so they are our version of flamers ... Also I don't see why shredders are getting so much hate for anti horde ... It was kinda made for it with it's no AP, high Strength, and re-roll wounds ... I realize it has a 12" range and variable shots which probably takes away from it's likability ... Just my thoughts

The Liquifier Gun does auto hit...I just wanted to point that out in case you were missing out. I see a lot of people seem to favour the Ossefactor but I plan on taking 2x the Liquifier gun most of the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Tue Aug 29 2017, 21:47

Sure, 1d3 autohits sounds better than 1 shooting on 3+.
But -3 AP is a lot better than -1d3, and always wounding on 2+ is pure glory. Mortal wounds are the icing of the cake.

So to sum the comparison : you get a ton of hits with liquifiers, and not so much with Ossefactor. But when you do hit with Ossefactor, it's almost a guaranteed kill, and often more than that.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 30 2017, 09:13

I think the main reason for me wanting to take the Liquifier Gun for now is because the Haemonculus can also take one and correct me if I am wrong he can't take the Ossefactor can he?

While I am knew to 8th I have been trying to keep units nice and simple and I keep the Haemy close to the Wracks so they tend to fight together. Having the same weapons makes choosing targets nice and straight forward for now. This way I am getting 3D6 auto hits, which can be useful against small hordes with an average of -2AP meaning no saves for most horde types i.e. Guard or Orks.

Just a real shame about S3 but at S4 it might have been an auto include...its a shame we don't have more flamer type weapons but what is known to be a precision army perhaps flamers don't really fit the theme very well.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 30 2017, 09:44

Mathhammer check: for the ossefactor vs MEQ on a bs3+ unit you will get 2/3 (hit) * 5/6 (wound) * 5/6 (save) + 2/3*5/6*5/6 (probability of wound) * 1/2 (mortal wound on 4+) = 0.694. In closer analysis you have 46.3% chance to kill a marine and if you do then you kill another 50% of the time. Vs termies where you might want the mortal wound you can't actually get the extra wound unless someone in the unit is already wounded, so what you get is 0.37 wounds off a fresh termie.

For the liquifier vs MEQ on a bs3+ you get 3.5 (shots) * 1/3 (wound) * 2/3 (save, average ap is 2) so it's 0.78 dead marines. So it's better for bs3+. But if you're firing at multi-wound models eg. TEQ then it's still the same amount of wounds and very much better than an ossefactor.

Vs GEQ for ossefactor it's 2/3*5/6  + 2/3*5/6*1/2 = 0.83 and furthermore this is because you kill 1 guardsman 56% of the time and then if you do, another 50% of the time. For liquifier it's 3.5 * 1/2 * (5.666...)/6 because of the variable ap for 1.652 dead guardsmen on average. and you will kill a single guardsman over 87% of the time.

If you're required to fire at armor then both wound on 6+ and you're not getting the mortal wound so it seems very straightforward the liquifier is better because it has 3.5 times the shots while the ossefactor perforates the armor 33% more often.

So it seems like unless you want oss for the range then liq is strictly better than ossefactor for wracks.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 30 2017, 10:22

But the Ossefactor is range vs flamers are not.

Tho i rather have a LG. By Wracks and Grots wants to be in CC, i want to be close, so a LG is better, i also use them as Anti-horde, another reason why i like LGs on them.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 30 2017, 10:40

@Lord Johan wrote:

So it seems like unless you want oss for the range then liq is strictly better than ossefactor for wracks.
Range makes a big difference.
And you may not be aware of it, but mortal wounds inflicted by the Ossefactor can inflict additionnal mortal wounds (RAW). Realizing this made me love that weapon.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 30 2017, 10:46

Right, as noted range is the argument you can make in favor of oss, not damage.

That rule, if your opp. allows it, will change damage output vs meq where it would work best of common opponents to be
2/3*5/6*2/3 + 2/3*5/6*2/3*sum(1/2^n),n=1 to squad size. So for a squad of 10 marines this makes it deal 0.74 wounds average as output by Wolfram Alpha. So while it sounds awesome it still kills fewer on average than a liquifier and less reliably although obviously with insane high roll potential

Edit: that should be squad size -1 for obvious reasons but since this shouldd decrease damage by less than 0.01 i wont bother with re-input
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