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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 11:10

Edit: Not worth my time nor talking to you now, attacking me is just stupid, end topic.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 11:19

@amishprn86 wrote:
WOW.... really.... so hostile

Sorry. It was uncalled for, and inappropriate.

Quote :

When did i say your suppose to use shooting units to melee? I said we "Shoot 1st to weaken them then melee"

If you are trying to be effectiving shooting with wyches, then yes you will have a bad time, if you are trying to win big melee's with a shooting unit of scourges... then yes you will have a bad time.

If you have Incubi your not going to charge them against a tank, you will shoot the tank with DL's, Blasters and Dis Cannons then charge....

Again thats the shoot 1st then melee approach.

Which literally every army other than Tau can do to varying degrees, many better than us. Most armies have better melee units than us, for cheaper, and better shooting than us to soften the enemy up first, also often cheaper.

Our army has a large number of assault units with no niche, or at least none that they fill well (wyches do lasgun level damage in combat for twice the price of a guardsman, bloodbrides are worse). Others are massively overpriced for what they bring to the table (compare Hellions and Assualt Marines or Raptors).
Finally, many of our units are flat out worse than every equivalent in other armies (Reavers have less firepower than literally any other bike in the game, and are very weak at melee compared to other assault bikes (and all their wargear paints them as assault bikes). Talos is the worst combat focused monstrous creature in the game, hands down. And our special characters are all wimps for their points costs)

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 11:32

@FuelDrop wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
WOW.... really.... so hostile

Sorry. It was uncalled for, and inappropriate.

Quote :

When did i say your suppose to use shooting units to melee? I said we "Shoot 1st to weaken them then melee"

If you are trying to be effectiving shooting with wyches, then yes you will have a bad time, if you are trying to win big melee's with a shooting unit of scourges... then yes you will have a bad time.

If you have Incubi your not going to charge them against a tank, you will shoot the tank with DL's, Blasters and Dis Cannons then charge....

Again thats the shoot 1st then melee approach.

Which literally every army other than Tau can do to varying degrees, many better than us. Most armies have better melee units than us, for cheaper, and better shooting than us to soften the enemy up first, also often cheaper.

Our army has a large number of assault units with no niche, or at least none that they fill well (wyches do lasgun level damage in combat for twice the price of a guardsman, bloodbrides are worse). Others are massively overpriced for what they bring to the table (compare Hellions and Assualt Marines or Raptors).
Finally, many of our units are flat out worse than every equivalent in other armies (Reavers have less firepower than literally any other bike in the game, and are very weak at melee compared to other assault bikes (and all their wargear paints them as assault bikes). Talos is the worst combat focused monstrous creature in the game, hands down. And our special characters are all wimps for their points costs)

Lets humor you

Niche

Inchi -- Anti Meq
Wyches - Lock down important melee units  (like termies)
Grots and Wracks with haemi- Anti Horde
Hellions - Faster Shock charger, aka Anti Invul units (Or units like Biovores, grots etc...) or a Anti-charge unit, even Assassin killers (great at this actually)
Claw Fiends - Same as Hellions but can also take on higher Armor unit due to AP like 3/4+ save, Tau units are a good example and even termies
RWF - fast screen and denial unit


We are not like Harlequins were we can win melees 1 to 1, we dont win melee 1 to 1, we are meant to pick melee's that are in our favor.

Having RWF move and charge turn 2 to shut down a unit for back up like Claw Fiends or Grots

Hellions to hide in cover (or on a Tantalus for now) i love them to kill units with a 3/4+ Invul and multi-wounds, if you get 4 wounds through doesnt matter AP, you doing 2D each meaning you just did 8 damage.

We are a scalpel, we hit the right area to do large damage, we are not a Machete and do lots of surface damage. We hit hard at the right spots and times we will do huge amount of damage.



But currently there are a few things we can not deal with, but this is the case with most armies.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 11:47

I actually had decent success with kabalites against Plague Marines. The Sybarite with an agoniser. Sure, I did not win, but looked him up long enough (and sure, I decimated them before cc).

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 12:07

@CptMetal wrote:
I actually had decent success with kabalites against Plague Marines. The Sybarite with an agoniser. Sure, I did not win, but looked him up long enough (and sure, I decimated them before cc).

I actually melee with my kabals (trueborns actually) too, but for the sake of arguing with some people i didnt talk about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 12:13

@FuelDrop wrote:


Which literally every army other than Tau can do to varying degrees, many better than us. Most armies have better melee units than us, for cheaper, and better shooting than us to soften the enemy up first, also often cheaper.

Our army has a large number of assault units with no niche, or at least none that they fill well (wyches do lasgun level damage in combat for twice the price of a guardsman, bloodbrides are worse). Others are massively overpriced for what they bring to the table (compare Hellions and Assualt Marines or Raptors).
Finally, many of our units are flat out worse than every equivalent in other armies (Reavers have less firepower than literally any other bike in the game, and are very weak at melee compared to other assault bikes (and all their wargear paints them as assault bikes). Talos is the worst combat focused monstrous creature in the game, hands down. And our special characters are all wimps for their points costs)

I think trying to convince anyone that Taloï, Reavers and special HQs are bad in the DE Index is a waste of time. Everyone knows that.
But i think you are wrong : in previous editions, our shooting units were quite good at CC, and our CC units quite good at shooting. Let's talk about 7th edition (which was worse for us than 8th, mind you) :
- Kabalites : a shooting unit, able to deliver 3 S4 attacks per model in CC.
- Wyches : were not viable in 7th, but had Haywire grenades in 5th-6th, which is both a shooting and a cc tool.
- Wracks : great at CC, and the ossefactor is gorgious (even more now).
- Reavers : were our best CC unit (IMO), but had access to great shooting weapons (and could use a HL really well).
- Talos : splinter pod was really good when it was a blast, yet this is a CC unit.
- Mandrakes : while they sucked back then, they are now the definition of a polyvalent unit.

Overall the only units that are clearly not polyvalent are beasts (for obvious reasons) and scourges (because they are just too good at range).

It is plainly obvious that DE is made to be an army that plays both the shooting and the CC game, and that's not a problem at all (it's actually a ton of fun). And most importantly : it's not going to change. While i enjoy the wishlisting we see in this forum (it's fun to see what other people can think of), GW are mostly going to tweak existing things. We won't have 7 new cult units in the codex (we probably won't have any). So if your vision of DE was "a cc oriented army", i would argue that you have mistaken them for Harlequins.


Edit : in 7th edition Kabalites were late game CC murdermachines. I miss the old +1 S +1 A from the PFP. +1 to hit doesn't cut it...

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 14:02

Yes, I completely agree we should do both

Only right now our melee options are always to bad in comparison.

Inchi -- Anti Meq
  True and they are nice

Wyches - Lock down important melee units  (like termies)
They are way to expensive for it. Anything with more attacks makes short work of wyches wich means their job is really really limited. As soon as things have no ap or does not deal multiple wounds value most guard or swarm equivalents do a similar job for half the price. Even with an ap value any horde army has a unit that can do it in a pinch because they can just throw a model with less then half the cost in front of it. Which means we have a unit which function is to tie up specific units and other armies have a cheaper option that works against a bigger variety of units.

Grots and Wracks with haemi- Anti Horde
At somewere between 5 and 8 points per attack I would not call them good anti horde.

Hellions - Faster Shock charger, aka Anti Invul units (Or units like Biovores, grots etc...) or a Anti-charge unit, even Assassin killers (great at this actually)
Yes they are really good, but without a delivery mechanism inside the codex and the fact that they die to a stiff wind they are considered grosly overpriced compared to similar options

Claw Fiends - Same as Hellions but can also take on higher Armor unit due to AP like 3/4+ save, Tau units are a good example and even termies
I actually quite like them and think they rely a little bit much on an overpriced beastmaster if you only have 1 unit, but I like them.

RWF - fast screen and denial unit
A bit expensive compared to similar swarms in other armies, but still quite an ok unit. Still a lot of wounds and against most things better at tanking than wyches in my mind.
Although that we cannot buy them at unit size 1 hurts them as a denial unit, since kabalites khymera, and clawed fiends, lahmians, ur ghul, medusa all can fulfill the denial unit function cheaper.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 14:23

Other swarms are same price tho..... all swarms are 12-14pts, ours are the best and fastest for screen units, Scarabs are best for raw damage (always wounds on 5+ never 6+) Nids can DS or have pistols, so they can do 8 hits as well in cc.

Claw Fiends are stronger than Beastmasters, being S/T of 5 compare to 3 is a huge difference.

I do agree that hellions are to much glass and only work in friendly games, but they still have a roll, against heavy assassin armies (like the new top meta lists) they actually are really strong.

Grotes and Wracks are meant as AH, they are T5 (meaning they get wounded on 5's over 4's) have 2 saves (granted its 5++/6++) and can have many flamers (Anti-horde gun) if those combined they are AH, but i do agree they are over costed.

I feel we are just over costed and dont really need much tweaks, my main 2 things would be makes many units and wargear a bit cheaper and get our HQ's purpose w/ other means of mobility.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 14:39

Amish is not really stating that those units are good. He is stating that the role is covered, since those units exist.
If i understand him clearly (which i think i do), his point is that we don't need MOAR UNITS !!. We have a polyvalent roster that can cover every need. Some are just barely usable because they are overcosted.
And indeed, if Liquifier was a bit less pricey, and maybe S4, we'd have decent anti-horde units.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 14:41

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Amish is not really stating that those units are good. He is stating that the role is covered, since those units exist.
If i understand him clearly (which i think i do), his point is that we don't need MOAR UNITS !!. We have a polyvalent roster that can cover every need. Some are just barely usable because they are overcosted.
And indeed, if Liquifier was a bit less pricey, and maybe S4, we'd have decent anti-horde units.

This.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 15:15

Just wrote a whole page, then deleted it.

I agree we do not need more units, but our units sometimes need to get their function together slightly better. We often pay premium because we got a lot of good special rules, only those rules do not work well for that unit, or the unit is just overpriced.

For instance Grots and Wracks have to many things that work badly for horde killers, but are expensive.
poison (if you have 1 unit with it then it is great, if your entire army has it a unit with s3 is sometimes better and a unit with s4 is usually better)
Ward save instead of normal save (Nice but why would someone shoot/attack with ap weapons against them?, effectively it puts them at the same function as wyches although against units with a lower strength)

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 15:19

Amish has it right.  DE is a very specialized army, each unit has specific roles to fill and in a game, once you start taking those units out of their role, the whole battle will quickly fall apart.  Take SM for example, they are typically a very generalist army (granted they have some specialists units), but the vast majority of the units are good at shooting and CC.  Where I feel that we have units that are GREAT at shooting and others that are GREAT at CC, but only if you use them against the correct targets.  That's what makes DE fun, it has more of a learning curve to get good with.  You can't just take a net list and expect to win, like you can with other armies.

If you try to play DE with the same playstyle as you would SM, CSM, Orks, Necrons or any other army, then you're doing it wrong.  I'll agree that Reavers and Taloi are in a bad place right now compared to equivalents in other armies, but it is very tough to straight up compare our units vs a similar unit from another army.  Simply because of the playstyle.  



From looking at the codex releases so far, it is a pretty safe assumption that we will indeed get a cost reduction on a lot of units/wargear.  We should also expect to receive some relics that will hopefully give our HQs some purpose (I'm still holding out hope that the WWP will be a relic).  

I fully expect to see Coven get cost reductions on most units.  GW has shown to pay SOME attention to the meta so far and adjust points based on what they are seeing/reading, and it's pretty apparent that Coven needs points reductions across the board to be viable again.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 21:28

@amishprn86 wrote:
heavy assassin armies (like the new top meta lists) they actually are really strong.

What's this?
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 21:47

@lament.config wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
heavy assassin armies (like the new top meta lists) they actually are really strong.

What's this?

I think he's talking about putting a bunch of Culexus Assassins up front so that you can only shoot them due to being closest character, but you can only hit them on a 6+. It may be different assassin but whatever.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 21:59

I might be wrong but just because the character is the closest unit does not mean you can only shoot the character ... I'm pretty sure you can ignore them and shoot the stuff behind them unless the entire army is comprised entirely of characters ...
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 22:17

@Archon_91 wrote:
I might be wrong but just because the character is the closest unit does not mean you can only shoot the character ... I'm pretty sure you can ignore them and shoot the stuff behind them unless the entire army is comprised entirely of characters ...

That's the spirit of Assassins army... army composed almost entirely of characters.
And the Culexus up front is shielding everyone while being impossible to hit.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 22:53

What's the T and W of a Culexus? And how many pts are they? That just doesn't seem like a monumentally good strategy.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 23:57

So. couple of things.
First, sorry for lashing out earlier in the thread.

Second, getting talked around on some things, less on others.

Really, our primary weapons being rapid fire (something that for 7 editions meant you could not charge) and lacking pistols makes me question our status as a 'shoot then engage' army. Assault weapons or pistols would support this kind of build much better.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Fri Aug 25 2017, 00:04

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Fri Aug 25 2017, 00:14

Nasty and clever. Who said invisibility was dead?
I wonder if GW will break that list up.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Fri Aug 25 2017, 10:20

Nah, flamers wreck it. Players just need to play more Tac lists, in Tournaments its all for nothing. You will always have hard counter lists like this in tournaments.

Play this list against a more friendly game where they have flamers, snipers, shock melee units etc.. and it crumbles right away.

Speaking of holes THIS is a niche thing that hellions shine at

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Fri Aug 25 2017, 13:11

I know I harp on about this a lot but it is all I really know after being hiatus since 5th. But in 5th and before our weakness was always life expectancy, our damage output was always pretty good, but you had to use your manuverablity to get the right weapons into the right places, be they shooting or assault, and usually a mixture of the two, because if you got it wrong you weren't coming back from it.

I would not have called us a short army or an assault army, I blame 6thand definitely 7th for inflicting that kind of mono style strategy upon us. Instead we delighted in death be it our own or the enemy's. But it always ended in an exciting game!

I feel this is lost on us still, as we just don't have the close combat units to balance our shooting, and even if we do, they can't get into combat and keep the pressure rolling because they a) have a very slow delivery system in transports disembarking before movement and b) the enemy having such an easy way out with falling back
Both of these lose us the tactical advantage of our manuverability and leave us as glass rather than glass cannon in the melee department
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Sat Aug 26 2017, 08:44

I feel like this is where grotesques and talos should be more important. Grotesques picked up no real bonus in survivablity this edition. If anything having s3 wound on 5+ was a flat nerf.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Sat Aug 26 2017, 09:19

@lament.config wrote:
I feel like this is where grotesques and talos should be more important. Grotesques picked up no real bonus in survivablity this edition. If anything having s3 wound on 5+ was a flat nerf.

I think they didn't technically get nerfed, it's just that everyone else moved on without us while we stayed put.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Sat Aug 26 2017, 15:16

@FuelDrop wrote:
@lament.config wrote:
I feel like this is where grotesques and talos should be more important. Grotesques picked up no real bonus in survivablity this edition. If anything having s3 wound on 5+ was a flat nerf.

I think they didn't technically get nerfed, it's just that everyone else moved on without us while we stayed put.

This is exactly what I've been saying about Grots.
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