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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 11:43

I think we're paying the fact that we have more means of putting it in melta range (scourges and bikes). GW were afraid to give a good melta weapon to an army that has the speed to use it.
I honestly don't care much about having a good melta weapon. What i would like is a plasma weapon for DE : a cheapish rapidfire weapon that can tackle infantry as primary choice, and light vehicles as secondary choice.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 11:50

@Mppqlmd wrote:
I think we're paying the fact that we have more means of putting it in melta range (scourges and bikes). GW were afraid to give a good melta weapon to an army that has the speed to use it.
I honestly don't care much about having a good melta weapon. What i would like is a plasma weapon for DE : a cheapish rapidfire weapon that can tackle infantry as primary choice, and light vehicles as secondary choice.

Trust me. Chaos Marines have plenty of options for getting melta in fast. They can put 2 melta 1 combi-melta in a 3 man bike squad (then slaaneshi it up to double tap!)

And Deep Striking Chaos Termies with Combi-melta/plasma. And infiltrating chosen with melta/plasma, and...

My point is that they don't seem to be afraid of giving other armies these combos, often on very durable or maneuverable platforms, often cheaper than our equivalent.

And I agree. Disintegrator rifles or carbines need to be a thing. it always comes back to our very limited weapon selection.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 12:11

@FuelDrop wrote:
And I agree. Disintegrator rifles or carbines need to be a thing. it always comes back to our very limited weapon selection.

Would it really kill GW to put out a box of Trueborn with some new weapons, like the aforementioned Dissie Rifles? If they fancied rewriting the rules for Shredders whilst they're at it I wouldn't object either!

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 13:00

What are shredders for?
If it has no ap you can get twice as much shots from poison and even if there was no to wound roll it would not be better.
Shredders are closest to light vehicle busting for me, since i cannot give dissies to foot troops. But then heavy vehicle busting does it more effective.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 13:53

That's why they have to make the Shredder a flamer, or a D6 hits.
It should be our solution against low-T hordes.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 14:13

@Mppqlmd wrote:
That's why they have to make the Shredder a flamer, or a D6 hits.
It should be our solution against low-T hordes.

I say boost the Shredder's range and give it the same 6's are AP -4 that other monofiliment weapons get, filling the role of longer range anti infantry.

Then add something else to be a flamer type thing. I think that a poisoned (2+) flamer with no AP would be ideal.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 00:20

Or at the very least make the Liquifier gun and medusae eye-burst auto hits so they are our version of flamers ... Also I don't see why shredders are getting so much hate for anti horde ... It was kinda made for it with it's no AP, high Strength, and re-roll wounds ... I realize it has a 12" range and variable shots which probably takes away from it's likability ... Just my thoughts
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 00:57

@Mppqlmd wrote:
That's why they have to make the Shredder a flamer, or a D6 hits.
It should be our solution against low-T hordes.

Really, would that be enough? We only have Trueborn and Scourges to max out Shredders.
And Scourges are too squishy and will evaporate to the waves of GEQ fire. Trueborn fare better because they are in transports... quite expensive transports.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 00:59

Maybe Wyches could take Shredders again, like back in 3rd edition?
Also, Trueborn and Scourges means 2/3rds of our shooty units can spam them!

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 01:03

Quote :
Really, would that be enough? We only have Trueborn and Scourges to max out Shredders.
And Scourges are too squishy and will evaporate to the waves of GEQ fire. Trueborn fare better because they are in transports... quite expensive transports.

A unit of four shredders with D6 Auto hits will kill 9 Guardsmen a turn! The other one flees for his life. Killing a squad of Guardsmen a turn is no joke

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 07:14

@Archon_91 wrote:
Or at the very least make the Liquifier gun and medusae eye-burst auto hits so they are our version of flamers ... Also I don't see why shredders are getting so much hate for anti horde ... It was kinda made for it with it's no AP, high Strength, and re-roll wounds ... I realize it has a 12" range and variable shots which probably takes away from it's likability ... Just my thoughts

Shredders get so much hate because despite it's high strength and reroll to wounds it is more expensive and deal less damage then an extra kabalite.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 09:19

@TheBaconPope wrote:
Quote :
Really, would that be enough? We only have Trueborn and Scourges to max out Shredders.
And Scourges are too squishy and will evaporate to the waves of GEQ fire. Trueborn fare better because they are in transports... quite expensive transports.

A unit of four shredders with D6 Auto hits will kill 9 Guardsmen a turn! The other one flees for his life. Killing a squad of Guardsmen a turn is no joke

That Trueborn squad would cost a minimum of 87 points even if the Shredder didn't get a points bump from becoming a 'template' weapon and that's without the transport they need to have even a remote chance of getting in range. It would probably drop range to 8" too, leaving them dangerously close to the enemy.

The squad of Guardsmen is 40 points.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 10:05

jeah, but they would also kill more then a squad of harlequins Razz
And those cost a probably nearly as much as the trueborn and their ride combined Wink
No one can kill guardsmen on a 1 to one basis. If we pay double to kill a squad of guardsmen in 1 turn I think we are in a good spot.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 10:14

I'll be honest, we probably need some effective way to damage hordes from beyond spitting distance. Most of the other armies get Artillery, or their heavy weapon equivalent (Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser, ect) is effective against low toughness at long distance. We have disintegrators, which have to kill something in the realm of 8 guardsmen each before making their points back, and Splinter Cannons, which put out the equivalent of 3 lasgun shots at anything beyond 18".

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 10:15

Im late to this discussion, but we are not a "heavy" melee army, we are shoot 1st then melee weaken units.

We do have some Melee to fill some rolls, but we are not meant to out horde a melee horde nor to melee tanks.

PS: yes we do need better Anti-horde, i do agree with you on that.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 10:19

@amishprn86 wrote:
Im late to this discussion, but we are not a "heavy" melee army, we are shoot 1st then melee weaken units.

We do have some Melee to fill some rolls, but we are not meant to out horde a melee horde nor to melee tanks.

PS: yes we do need better Anti-horde, i do agree with you on that.

Your argument would be much stronger if the vast majority of our army wasn't geared for melee, and each section wasn't supposed to be technically playable as its own thing.

As I said before, we have a higher melee to range specialist ratio than the goddamn ORKS.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 10:20

@|Meavar wrote:
jeah, but they would also kill more then a squad of harlequins Razz
And those cost a probably nearly as much as the trueborn and their ride combined Wink
No one can kill guardsmen on a 1 to one basis. If we pay double to kill a squad of guardsmen in 1 turn I think we are in a good spot.

The Harelquins would probably cost about the same as the Trueborn unless you kit them all out with fusion pistols and kisses but yes, anything that is good against Hordes will also be good against Harlequins because they share, essentially, the same defensive profile.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 10:38

@FuelDrop wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Im late to this discussion, but we are not a "heavy" melee army, we are shoot 1st then melee weaken units.

We do have some Melee to fill some rolls, but we are not meant to out horde a melee horde nor to melee tanks.

PS: yes we do need better Anti-horde, i do agree with you on that.

Your argument would be much stronger if the vast majority of our army wasn't geared for melee, and each section wasn't supposed to be technically playable as its own thing.

As I said before, we have a higher melee to range specialist ratio than the goddamn ORKS.


Just b.c we have more melee units does mean we are a melee army, anyways many of our units are also both, which goes back to what i was saying, we shoot 1st then melee


I mean we are talking about something like 12 dedicated shooting units vs 13 or so melee units with 6-7 units that are just as good at both.

1/2 of our book is melee not majority.

You want a melee army you say ork, but orks i believe have the same ratio of melee vs shooting in their dex just as DE does, and more both shooting/melee units. The difference is they have more units that can focus on either shooting or melee if you kit them out that way. We dont for the most part.

A heavy melee army would be a KDK army, Harlequins, Space Wolves, etc..

It is true we are not pure shooting, but we also are not melee focus, DE is made to soften up the opponent with shooting and then go in for the lethal strike.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 10:41

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@|Meavar wrote:
jeah, but they would also kill more then a squad of harlequins Razz
And those cost a probably nearly as much as the trueborn and their ride combined Wink
No one can kill guardsmen on a 1 to one basis. If we pay double to kill a squad of guardsmen in 1 turn I think we are in a good spot.

The Harelquins would probably cost about the same as the Trueborn unless you kit them all out with fusion pistols and kisses but yes, anything that is good against Hordes will also be good against Harlequins because they share, essentially, the same defensive profile.

SOB can, SOB can and will win against IG spam b.c they can out range turn 1 and do more shots with AOF giving dbl shooting.

I've tested it, there are 3 lists i need to flush out and see what is better, IDK is repressor spam (2units in a repressor x7), Storm Bolter spam or Heavy Bolter spam is best.

I tested out SB and Repressor spam, both were extremely effective, but i have a feeling HB Repressor spam would work better.

I mean i am talking about 190-250 shots a turn of bolter and more HB's (tho heavy bolters is more like 120-160 shots a turn).

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 10:48

Compare that to our pitiful firepower and tell me we're a shooty army!

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 10:50

We arnt, we are both, we shoot then melee XD

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 10:52

@amishprn86 wrote:
We arnt, we are both, we shoot then melee XD

And we're not good at either!

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 10:54

@FuelDrop wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
We arnt, we are both, we shoot then melee XD

And we're not good at either!

Ive been saying for the past 2 years, we are over costed b.c we do both.

I agree that we need a little help but im saying we dont need help, just not with dedicated melee, we just need to a better points balance, and a few more options back that we used to have.

If we had Re-rolls to hit auras, Talos back to better ap and damage along with points adjustment we would be perfect.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 11:01

@amishprn86 wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
We arnt, we are both, we shoot then melee XD

And we're not good at either!

Ive been saying for the past 2 years, we are over costed b.c we do both.

I agree that we need a little help but im saying we dont need help, just not with dedicated melee, we just need to a better points balance, and a few more options back that we used to have.

If we had Re-rolls to hit auras, Talos back to better ap and damage along with points adjustment we would be perfect.

Our ranged units cannot melee well. our melee units cannot range well, or in many cases at all. If we are getting charged extra because our army has both melee and ranged units that is dumb. if you are saying that our units can melee and range, then I disagree (post edited)

Also, I think you are very much off on your list of what needs fixing.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Thu Aug 24 2017, 11:08

Okay, there's no need to get personal about this. Discuss it in a civil fashion please, without the insults.

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