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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 00:58

So I have been thinking. For an army that is so heavily focused on melee, we have some serious holes in our list as far as our melee capacities are concerned.

Specifically:

1) We lack a monsterous creature hunter. the BEST we have in that regard is the Talos, which really fails in that regard. I think that a wych cult unit would be best for this. Maybe give Bloodbrides the option of taking squad wide electrocorrosive whips?

2) We lack melee anti-vehicle. I say give the Talos a dedicated "Anti-big-stuff" weapon.

3) we lack cost-effective melee anti-horde.

I would not be harping on this were it not for the excessive focus on melee in our army. We should not have this many holes in our arsenal!

What are your thoughts? are there any other holes I missed?

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 01:42

I've never had a problem using Incubi to hunt Monstrous Creatures.  Their Murderous Precision (or whatever it's called--the ability that explodes their damage) has made mincemeat of a couple of Daemon princes for me.

And unfortunately, everyone lacks cost effective anti-horde right now, don't they? Which is why hordes are doing so well.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 01:46

Having one guy per squad with murderous precision doesn’t really scream "monster slayers" to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 02:08

I play a lot of splinter weaponry so if darklight is pointed at mech then the poison can start whittling down monstrous creatures. I really don't mind them that much, but maybe there's something specifically you had in mind that you're having trouble with? I may well never have encountered it.

But regarding our melee ability....sometimes it is frustrating but the way I've always seen it is that we're not actually the army that throws our melee units into a fight unless it's already clearly imbalanced in our favor. We're going to fly in circles and whittle down our enemy and then mop up the stragglers with sharp knives and a healthy appetite for souls.

But until then....nah.

I don't send Incubi in to kill something that will hit hard enough back to hurt them or see them obliterated too easily. But they're also just 90pts so definitively mopping up something that has to die is sometimes worth sacrificing them. I'm also not losing sleep over this.

Yeah I'd love it if I could, but I don't really find that we're crippled without that hard melee specialization.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 02:12

I should be clear: I don't have problems with monsters or vehicles (I pretty much ignore our melee wing these days)

I just felt that with so much of our army built for close combat it was odd that we lack hard melee counters to these things.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 04:26

I don't really think that DE is a melee oriented army. I can certainly see how one would think that we should be based on the PFP table, but maybe that was a way to give us some melee options in a shooty army.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 04:28

Incubi, Clawed Fiends, Khymera, and Mandrakes are the only units I'd classify as "good" in close combat for us. So for an army where two out of three units are CC oriented, roughly a fifth is effective at its job. :/

Quote :
I don't really think that DE is a melee oriented army. I can certainly see how one would think that we should be based on the PFP table, but maybe that was a way to give us some melee options in a shooty army.

An army where there are no shooting benefits for their Army special rule, where 2 out of the 3 sub-factions are melee focused, and where 23 units out of 32 units are melee focused doesnt make DE a melee army?
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 04:34

The entire Covens and Wych cults sections of the army are melee focused at the exclusion of pretty much all else. Add to that incubi and the fact that most of our vehicles have melee weapons, and I defy you to show us as a shooty army with a touch of melee options.

I am sorry, but the DE being a shooty army is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. We have 3 dedicated shooty units (not counting vehicles), warriors, Trueborn, and Scourges. For melee we have:
Wyches, Bloodbrides, Hellions, Reavers, Incubi, Wracks, Beast masters, All the beasts, Grotesques, Talos, Cronos.
Mandrakes are kinda half and half.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 04:44

Just to emphasize: off the top of my head the Orks have: Shoota Boyz, Burna Boyz, Flash Gitz, Lootaz, Tankbustaz, and Grot Gunz. More than twice as many dedicated ranged units as us, most of whom could take wyches and beat them up for their lunch money.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 10:03

- Melee BGH : Wracks. 2 poisonned attacks hitting on 2+ is as good as it gets on a T5 Inv 5+ model. For 10 points.
- Melee Anti-tank : is that even a thing ? We've got one of the best long range AT in the game, why do you need to blow them up in cc ?
- Melee anti-horde : CF and Khymeras.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 10:17

Mppqlmd wrote:
- Melee BGH : Wracks. 2 poisonned attacks hitting on 2+ is as good as it gets on a T5 Inv 5+ model. For 10 points.
Warriors are cheaper and can shoot from the safety of a vehicle. But they're still doing a measly 1 wound with no AP, even if they are wounding somewhat reliably.

Quote :

- Melee Anti-tank : is that even a thing ? We've got one of the best long range AT in the game, why do you need to blow them up in cc ?

By the best, you mean one of the more mobile options. Most other armies have longer range. the majority have higher strength. Many have access to far more spammable options. Go ahead, tell a Tau player that DE have better ranged anti-tank and watch them laugh. Tell anyone with access to a Battle Cannon (72" range, Heavy d6, Strength 8 AP -2 Damage D6) that we outclass them at ranged anti-tank.

As for melee anti-tank: Tankbustaz, Power Fists, Thunder Hammers, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons, Powa Klawz, Crushing Claws, Ghostglaive/Heavy Ghostglaive, would you like me to continue? I have more!

Quote :
- Melee anti-horde : CF and Khymeras.

While they are definitely powerhouses, they lack survivability and speed to get into combat with said hordes and are rather pricey.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 10:29

In my opinion, there is no "safety of a vehicle" if you're at close range of a MC. And at long range, Kabs are less efficient than Wracks, that can serve the double purpose of tying down and slowly killing MC.

And no, by "best anti-tank", i mean "best anti-tank". Tau players are not going to laugh, because they almost completly lost their laser markers shenanigans and they know the difference between BS4+ and BS3+ when it comes to heavy artillery. Shockingly, i find T'au VERY weak in this edition.
Our equivalent to the Battlecannon is the Reaper gun. D6 S8 AP-4 D6 (and a neat special rule). Less range, far deadlier.
Our Anti-tank weapons are spammable as hell, come with a Space Marine BS, enough range and speed to make it a global threat, the best AP in the game. Oh, and it is equipped on vehicles that are resilient to heavy weapons due to a nice little Inv 5+.
I only said "one of the best" because i haven't decided yet what's best between S9 AP-3 and S8 AP -4.


About the CC anti-tank : i'm an ork player, and trust me, if orks had good BS, then wouldn't bother with CC Tankbustas. The only reason to take CC anti-tank is because you don't have good tools to deal with tanks at range. So no reason at all to look for CC anti-tank in a DE codex.
An old master once told me : don't bother with CC dreadnought. If you want a vehicle dead, you want him dead turn 1, not turn 3.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 10:36

Mppqlmd wrote:
In my opinion, there is no "safety of a vehicle" if you're at close range of a MC. And at long range, Kabs are less efficient than Wracks, that can serve the double purpose of tying down and slowly killing MC.

And no, by "best anti-tank", i mean "best anti-tank". Tau players are not going to laugh, because they almost completly lost their laser markers shenanigans and they know the difference between BS4+ and BS3+ when it comes to heavy artillery. Shockingly, i find T'au VERY weak in this edition.
Our equivalent to the Battlecannon is the Reaper gun. D6 S8 AP-4 D6 (and a neat special rule). Less range, far deadlier.
Our Anti-tank weapons are spammable as hell, come with a Space Marine BS, enough range and speed to make it a global threat, the best AP in the game. Oh, and it is equipped on vehicles that are resilient to heavy weapons due to a nice little Inv 5+.
I only said "one of the best" because i haven't decided yet what's best between S9 AP-3 and S8 AP -4.


About the CC anti-tank : i'm an ork player, and trust me, if orks had good BS, then wouldn't bother with CC Tankbustas. The only reason to take CC anti-tank is because you don't have good tools to deal with tanks at range. So no reason at all to look for CC anti-tank in a DE codex.

You do realize that Tau with Target Lock ignore movement penalties for Heavy Weapons, and with Longstrike nearby those hammerheads are hitting on 3+ (or 2+ vs fliers if they take a velocity tracker), right?


EDIT: Our anti-tank, at the moment, realistically boils down to 1 gun: The Darklance. Strength 8. 36". -4 AP. d6 damage. Heavy/assault 1. The Blaster comes in as an inferior second place. Haywire is pathetic, and Heat Lances are overpriced and lack reliability.

Our one gun is not so incredible that it edges out the entire field on its own.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 10:42

Monstrous creature
I agree with mPPQLMD here, monstrous creatures are not the biggest issue. We got plenty of poison, and can even get it in melee.

Anti tank.
No matter if others have better anti tank. We got 1 very common anti tank gun that is good. And a few that will do in a pinch. But 1 good weapon means spamming it (which we can). But I prefer to have a melee option as well.
Although that does not mean that when every other army can get some high str melee attacks for anti tank, hell even guard are better at killing tanks in melee.
I agree I would really want some anti tank melee, I think they wanted our hellions to function at light anti vehicle/monster/character killers, with their two damage and s4 base. But they need 1 or 2 ap for that and they are overpriced right now. And true high str multiple wounds melee weapons are lacking for us, but we have some poison melee to take out the monsters, either give us our haywire back (with a melee option like old school haywire grenade wyches) or show that like our ancient archon miniatures we also have power claws.

Quote :
- Melee anti-horde : CF and Khymeras.
While they are definitely powerhouses, they lack survivability and speed to get into combat with said hordes and are rather pricey. [/quote]
I think they are our best bet, and doubt anything better will come along, they got pretty decent speed (as in better then most hordes) and are decently priced. But I agree against a true horde army they are just going to fall short right now, but so will everybody else who is not a horde themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 10:42

Quote :
You do realize that Tau with Target Lock ignore movement penalties for Heavy Weapons, and with Longstrike nearby those hammerheads are hitting on 3+ (or 2+ vs fliers if they take a velocity tracker), right?

I do. I do also realize that they need a Unique HQ to achieve a BS that we get stock, and they need a special upgrade to ignore a penality that we don't suffer since our AT is assault.
So T'au are paying for things we get for free.
And hammerheads are, for the price of a Ravager, shooting 1 S10 AP-4 D6 (with a tiny chance of mortal wounds). We are, for the same price, shooting 3 S8 AP-4 D6 (or D6 S8 AP-4 D6). Which is miles better.
Sure, they got range, and we got speed. But at raw damage, ravagers outclass Hammerhead.

And the comparison only stands if they pay for the BS 3+ with a special HQ, and pay for the ability to move and shoot without malus. How are they better ?

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 10:47

Mppqlmd wrote:
Quote :
You do realize that Tau with Target Lock ignore movement penalties for Heavy Weapons, and with Longstrike nearby those hammerheads are hitting on 3+ (or 2+ vs fliers if they take a velocity tracker), right?

I do. I do also realize that they need a Unique HQ to achieve a BS that we get stock, and they need a special upgrade to ignore a penality that we don't suffer since our AT is assault.
So T'au are paying for things we get for free.
And hammerheads are, for the price of a Ravager, shooting 1 S10 AP-4 D6 (with a tiny chance of mortal wounds). We are, for the same price, shooting 3 S8 AP-4 D6 (or D6 S8 AP-4 D6). Which is miles better.
Sure, they got range, and we got speed. But at raw damage, ravagers outclass Hammerhead.

And the comparison only stands if they pay for the BS 3+ with a special HQ, and pay for the ability to move and shoot without malus. How are they better ?

As my edit says. We have 1 long range anti-tank option. Tau have more tools in their toolbox, ditto for literally every other army out there. Our one option is not the be-all and end-all of shooting vehicles.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 10:53

I know variety is nice and spamming is not enjoyable, but you don't more more than one codex entry to make an army the best. It has been proven true every time an underpriced unit has broken the game (birds, conscripts, Storm raven, etc.).
The only weapon that i consider an equal to the DL in terms of Anti-tank is a Lascannon held by a space marine. But they are less spammable (although considerably more durable). So i will state it once more : DE are one of the best, if not the best, AT army in the game.
It all seems fair when we are also completly unable to tackle hordes.

But i'd rather have 1 option that works (2, counting the almighty dissie) than 5 options that don't work (like T'au).

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 10:56

Mppqlmd wrote:
I know variety is nice and spamming is not enjoyable, but you don't more more than one codex entry to make an army the best. It has been proven true every time an underpriced unit has broken the game (birds, conscripts, Storm raven, etc.).
The only weapon that i consider an equal to the DL in terms of Anti-tank is a Lascannon held by a space marine. But they are less spammable (although considerably more durable). So i will state it once more : DE are one of the best, if not the best, AT army in the game.
It all seems fair when we are also completly unable to tackle hordes.

But i'd rather have 1 option that works (2, counting the almighty dissie) than 5 options that don't work (like T'au).

Check out the Necron weapon list before claiming supremacy. They have 3+ shooting, and their guns are NASTY.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 11:05

Necrons have one weapon that looks better than a DL : the heavy gauss cannon. However, it comes at 75pts a piece, and more importantly : it comes on a model that is squishy as hell, and has no inv save.
DL is cheaper, and far better protected.
Same for Doom scythes : 220pts for a thing that shoots less than a ravager ? Come on.
Same for Doomsday Ark : D3 shots on a 203 vehicle ?

Necrons have things we don't have : a metric heckton of S4 shootings that allow them to mulge through hordes. A shield that protects them from AT shootings.
But they are very inferior to us as to how much AT pain they can deliver.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 11:07

Interesting. Maybe I just have bad luck or have not played enough but I always found DE really struggling with AT, despite taking as much as possible.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 11:20

Anyway, i don't want to look like a nitpicker trying to spoil your threat about "holes in our list" (we could indeed use some new entries). It's just that the "Doom and Gloom" culture around this forum (while being very fluffy and intertaining) often leads us to not seeing the things that are actually in our favor.
I haven't got my hand on the new codices yet, but as far as indexes went, my observations lead me to this conclusion : we are God Tier in AT power.

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 11:24

Mppqlmd wrote:
Anyway, i don't want to look like a nitpicker trying to spoil your threat about "holes in our list" (we could indeed use some new entries). It's just that the "Doom and Gloom" culture around this forum (while being very fluffy and intertaining) often leads us to not seeing the things that are actually in our favor.
I haven't got my hand on the new codices yet, but as far as indexes went, my observations lead me to this conclusion : we are God Tier in AT power.

Honestly, you may be right. I was fighting you on it but you have covered many angles.

I will point you at obliterators though.

65 points gets you 3 wounds at T 4, 2+5++, and an Assault 4 24" range gun at S (6+d3), AP (-d3), D (d3).
Which come in squads of 3.
And can Deep Strike.
And are hitting on 3+ (with buffs that can easily turn that into 2+ rerollable).
And, as a capper: With Slaanesh there's a strategem that lets them fire twice in one shooting phase. That is 24 shots from a 3 man squad.

Who just deep-striked. And at the very least is rerolling 1's to hit. Plus has a legion trait (possibly Alpha Legion for -1 to shoot them back outside of 12")

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 11:31

Yes, we can be outclassed by plasma-like weapons, that got buffed due to the new wounding chart and are now very valid AT, while being infantry murderers. Obliterators are a good example, scions are another.
And Slaanesh's stratagem is crazy good. But that's to be expected when only 4 armies in the game have a codex. GW has to convince people to buy those damn books after all santa

So Touché, that's the one argument that can contest my statement. Which leads me to a question : why is the blaster only shooting once ?

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 11:35

Mppqlmd wrote:
Yes, we can be outclassed by plasma-like weapons, that got buffed due to the new wounding chart and are now very valid AT, while being infantry murderers. Obliterators are a good example, scions are another.
And Slaanesh's stratagem is crazy good. But that's to be expected when only 4 armies in the game have a codex. GW has to convince people to buy those damn books after all santa

So Touché, that's the one argument that can contest my statement. Which leads me to a question : why is the blaster only shooting once ?

Well that is simple: Because Blasters are mini-Dark-Lances. And Dark Lances only fire once. Ergo Blasters only fire once.


(Btw, what is your thoughts on our lack of high strength, reasonably priced melta?)

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PostSubject: Re: Holes in the list.   Wed Aug 23 2017, 11:38

Interesting: Apparently S 6 AP -5 is worth exactly 3 points more than S 8 AP -4. Just compared the Firepike (CWE 18" range Melta gun, 22 points) to the Heat Lance (25 points).

I think we might be overpaying for that extra -1 AP. Just a little.

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