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Chippen
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PostSubject: Dealing with popular lists and units   Tue Aug 22 2017, 13:59

Hey dudes and dudettes,

Fair warning, this became a wall of text due to a slow morning at work - the main discussion point will be at the end.

I've been thinking about my games lately and how my game plans haven't worked out against some of the more common/meta lists and units you see from various armies. I thought this thread might serve to give some good insight into how to use our tools to counter what's coming at us.


My biggest PITA has been Guard + Marines. At 1500 points, my buddy takes Pask and a tank commander who ping-pong orders to reroll 1s to hit, a Wyvern, and bubble wraps with Guardsmen with some heavy weapons and vet squads sprinkled throughout. He also drops a terminator squad, Terminator Captain, and 6 company vets with jump packs in my face.

I've tried to bait and switch - force the drop from termies/vets, then jet away since everything I have is in a transport, but our transports just aren't fast enough and there's no guarantee I'll even survive the drop. I managed to get his little homing beacon or whatever and strand the termies, but not before they wiped out way more points than he paid for them. I tried to just force the drop and focus everything on termies/vets, but partially due to a lack of LoS terrain and the stupid sails on our paper boats, Pask and the tank commander still ruined my day. The only thing I haven't tried is just getting all up in his face, but then I'm fighting not only the terminators, pask, and tank commander, but also the rest of his army. Any ideas here? My list is pretty standard - 1500 pts, two ravagers, Lance/Blaster Scourge, Blasterborn, Mandrakes, and fill out with troops.

The other nastiness is Necron warrior blobs supported by HQ - seems we just don't have the oomph to knock out a 20 man blob in any decent amount of time. If I take splinter cannons from Venoms and such into rapid fire range, I'm in rapid fire range of 20-40 warriors depending on positioning. Best I've been able to figure out is tie them up in melee with some throwaways back in their deployment zone, and hope he can't get to the objectives in time to win on points.

What are some nasty unit combinations or lists you've seen, and how have you dealt with them? Also any advice regarding the above situations would be great!

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Tue Aug 22 2017, 14:18

I have trashed Infantry based necrons everytime i fought them.
Even with the 5+ invulnerable bubble from cryptek, dissies and poison could destroy one 20 man squad per turn, at a 1000pts tag. PGL helped a lot.
I just had 3 squads of 10 kabs in raiders, and a dissie ravager + dissie RW.

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tonytastey
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Tue Aug 22 2017, 18:17

TBH, Mandrakes have been pretty underwhelming for me. I've also never found myself in a situation where I really wanted a squad of Blasterborn. I would drop those two units from your list and try fit in a pair of Razorwing Jetfighters with Dissies. The dissies will do wonders vs your problem units, and the Guard will have a hell of a time hitting those planes on a 5+, even rerolling 1's. Plus they'll be in your enemy's back line, away from the terminators that are presumably in yours. You can also use the large bases of the flyers to help block deep strikes on T1. Use your troop's transports to charge and tie up anything that is a threat to your Ravagers, and then focus down their high impact units.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Tue Aug 22 2017, 20:16

So Dark Eldar are the most broken army I've come across in 8th edition so far. Not lost a single game with them, so much so that i've put them into a box for the time being. Necrons, on the other hand, have been the most underwhelming army I've seen in 8th so far compared to what they used to be in 7th.

The two best weapons for DE in my experience and opinion are Disintergrators and Blasters. Bring as many as humanly possible into your list and you're a pretty mobile, durable, and disgustingly powerful force.

As many have pointed out in previous threads the golden super stars of our units for 8th are:
Ravagers
Raiders
Voidraven
Razorwing
Scourge
Trueborn

In general, bring as many blasters as you can and always put things in transports (dissies>lances). Contrary to common sense, getting in the face of the enemy with shooty DE is really good, charge anything you don't want to be able to shoot you next turn with your transports.

Guard

All their strengths lie in their ridiculously cheap armour and artillery pieces. Deep striking blaster scourge will deal with these super easily.

Necrons

Focus fire on a unit of 20 warriors with your dissies/poison and they will die really quickly, even with the crypteks for 5++. Never bring lances against Necrons, Quantum shields are dumb. Shoot Triarch stalkers if they have them with anti-tank if they don't shoot any other vehicle. Any squad of 20 that you haven't shot, charge with raiders and that squad is then useless next turn.

My usual 2k list comprises of:
3 Squads of warriors with blaster and Cannon
3 Raiders with Dissie cannons
2 Ravagers with Dissies
1 Razorwing
1 Voidraven (would replace the razorwing with a 2nd if I had one)
1 Blaster Scourge
2 Blaster born
2 Venoms to carry them
1 Archon

This or slight alternatives to this haven't lost me a single game yet and I've played against a lot of Necrons, Orks, Blood Angels, Chaos Marines, and Eldar.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Tue Aug 22 2017, 21:23

@Ghost wrote:

Guard

All their strengths lie in their ridiculously cheap armour and artillery pieces. Deep striking blaster scourge will deal with these super easily.
That's not really the hot list for A. M. right now. The hot list consists almost entirely of 3pts models that can shoot 4 times per turn and are immune to moral, can disengage and shoot, and die painfully slowly.
Sometimes helped in their glorious mission by deep striking Scions with cheap Plasma guns that also serve as Capucino dispensers.


I also wouldn't say that Necrons are weak. The protocole is easily handled by an army that has a huge fire focus (like DE), but trust me, for other armies they are a nightmare.
I wouldn't advice to charge Necron Warriors. A hot list for Necrons Infantry spam plays Anrakyr as overlord (the guy that can steal your vehicle's gun). Under his control, units of warriors will shoot twice at BS2+ (S4 PA-1), then charge, and attack twice at WS 2+, S4. That's 4 S4 attacks that hits on 2+ per 12pts model.
But i agree, Necrons are easily handled by DE. They often have little range, and little mobility. Try playing a CC army vs them, though, and you will see they are not weak at all.

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Tue Aug 22 2017, 22:04

Quote :
That's not really the hot list for A. M. right now. The hot list consists almost entirely of 3pts models that can shoot 4 times per turn and are immune to moral, can disengage and shoot, and die painfully slowly.
Sometimes helped in their glorious mission by deep striking Scions with cheap Plasma guns that also serve as Capucino dispensers.

You are right, conscript spam is the hotness. I haven't played or played against Guard yet so my opinions are all theory. 4 shots is still at bs 5+ and s3 I don't feel is huge issue even if a 50 man group fires 200 shots at a raider, it still has a chance to survive (6's to wound if a hemmy is about and you're cheesing it like that, if not 5s). Plus they'd have to get in rapid fire.

Scions are nice and scary for their points cost. 8 shots from a squad in rapid fire hitting on 3's is nothing to scoff at true. But our 5++ invul on vehicles makes us ridiculously tanky (IMO we have some of the tankiest vehicles in the game even though their toughness is the lowest).

I stand by my decision that Necrons just aren't scary in 8th for DE. I haven't fought against a list with Anrakyr but he can only take control of 1 gun which is not that scary. An annoyance, yes.

I would always with out a doubt charge a 20 man squad with what ever I have. They can't do anywhere near the amount of damage in CC as they can when shooting, and our vehicles can fall back freely.

I wouldn't say Necrons are bad this edition, but they are only middle-tier at best which is quiet the nerf compared to 7th. And yes, other armies have issues with them when they just don't have the fire power to melt a squad of 20 reliably a turn (SM comes to mind here). 8th to me feels very rock-paper-scissors with both unit choice and army choice by in large but I would say that DE stand ontop atm.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Tue Aug 22 2017, 22:22

It takes 180 conscript shots to down a Raider. That's 270pts of conscript if they are at long range, and 135pts if they are at close range. And then don't really give a damn about being close, since you can't kill them, and charging them is useless.
You are right, though, having an Haemy helps a lot, since it doubles the amount of shots needed for the conscripts.

The true greatness of Anrakyr is the +1 Attack aura to nearby Infantry, doubling the CC value of Warrior squads, which makes their CC almost (except for the -1 AP value) equivalent to what they do at range.
But yeah, i agree that Necrons is a favorable match-up for DE, due to our Speed and Range advantage and our ability to focus fire.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Tue Aug 22 2017, 23:52

I'd add Incubi and Reapers to the 'A List' roster.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Wed Aug 23 2017, 02:25

Scatterbikes deal with guard blobs. Or any blobs really. People think I'm crazy but I've melted a 70 wound Brimstone blob even with -1 to hit and a 4++ save.

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Wed Aug 23 2017, 02:31

That sounds like a blast to run. How many scatbikes are you gunning and are they getting Farseer support ?
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Wed Aug 23 2017, 03:58

Hell yes they're getting Farseer support. They also have Yvraine behind them giving them a soulburst shooting phase every turn. I usually run 1 squad of 9 and divvy their fire up as needed.

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Wed Aug 23 2017, 21:58

Any tips on dealing with Kastelan robots? I think Im going to be playing a buddies ad mech soon and I hear talk the robots are strong this edition.


Last edited by lament.config on Thu Aug 24 2017, 08:38; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Thu Aug 24 2017, 04:38

Kastelan Robots can put out a LOT of firepower this edition. I've only gone up against the shooty version, they can bring 3 Heavy Phosphor Blasters which have good range, strength and a little bit of AP modifier. They are Heavy 3, so 9 shots each, and have a special rule that if they did not move, they can fire twice, so 18 shots each.

Fortunately their wound count is low, so you can focus them down with DLs. They will more than likely bring Cawl and/or Dominus as an HQ. They don't have many good HQ choices, but the couple that are good, are REALLY good. bothl can regenerate D3 wounds of a nearby unit. Dominus will allow the robots to re-roll 1s to hit.

You want to make sure you focus them down 1 at a time to avoid them healing back up.

It's also worth noting that if they bring Onagers with the Icarus Array, they get a bonus for shooting units with the Fly keyword. So they will need to be high on your priority list as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Thu Aug 24 2017, 12:44

@lament.config wrote:
Any tips on dealing with Kastelan robots? I think Im going to be playing a buddies ad mech soon and I hear talk the robots are strong this edition.

Dark Lances!

Unfortunately, they have a 4++ and on a 5 or 6, the shooter takes a mortal wound. Therefore you need to keep the number of shots hitting the unit to a minimum. Shoot at it with high strength, high damage attacks and you're golden. I wouldn't recommend firing at it with a dissie cannon or blaster as you might do 2-3 damage, or you might take a mortal wound - Not worth it!

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Fri Aug 25 2017, 19:39

Quote :
Any tips on dealing with Kastelan robots? I think Im going to be playing a buddies ad mech soon and I hear talk the robots are strong this edition.
Dark Lances, Poison, Mortal Wounds, and concentrate fire. I have those buddies, they are godly.

Thing is, if they are on Aegis Protocol, if they roll 5 or 6 on invul while you shooting, they will use Repulsor Field to reflect shot and you will get mortal wound.

Concentrate Fire, or little techpriest at the end of his movement phase will heal D3 wound. And yes, dont forget Icarus Onager, it will down one boat a turn. And Kataphrons Servotirs, they also can shoot like mad. If they are armed with Plasma - present venoms to them and let them roll that 1 or 2 to remove the very expensive T5 3W 4+ model.

If you have smite - use smite. AM is very weak to all smite atacks.

Oh, try to not be in CC with them. Cause they wreck some serious harm.

Quote :
They don't have many good HQ choices, but the couple that are good, are REALLY good.
They only have 2 Smile Both are good. Cawl is stupid good.

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Sun Aug 27 2017, 02:20

Hey mind if I ask a Question? Saw this post so it had the same topic about what I was going to ask.

whats our answer to psychic spam and primarch level characters? Just had a game where I nearly tabled my opponent save for his Magnus who then literally walked through my army.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Sun Aug 27 2017, 10:52

Focus them down first?

How many wounds does Magnus have?

Throw ALL your Darklight at him turn 1, and if he's still standing: throw the poison.

Focus fire is your best bet against highly durable models like that. Roll enough dice and eventually, everything will die. pirat

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Sun Aug 27 2017, 11:31

@Ikol wrote:
Focus them down first?

How many wounds does Magnus have?

Throw ALL your Darklight at him turn 1, and if he's still standing: throw the poison.

Focus fire is your best bet against highly durable models like that.  Roll enough dice and eventually, everything will die. pirat

I think he has 9 wounds, which is the most broken number in the game because you can't shoot it.

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Sun Aug 27 2017, 11:43

Oh.

Right.

Hmmm.

Entire List of Rangers and Deathjesters with Illic Nightspear as the HQ?

Because that doesn't seem overly specialised at all.

/sarcasm

Edit: I should not have suggested this.
Now I want to try it.

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Sun Aug 27 2017, 13:55

So far my only dark eldar losses have been to daemon spam armies. I just can't figure out the tools to deal with them.

One is horror spam backed up by changeling and heralds/princes. The other was plaguebearer spam with a combined 12 malefic lords, daemon princes, and heralds.

The smite spam is devastating in these lists and was getting around a lot of my defenses like invul saves and negatives to hit while the chaff are so inexpensive and yet durable that I can't get through them quickly enough (the plaguebearer list, for example, had 120 bearers advancing up the table 10-11 inches a turn).

Any thoughts or unit recommendations you guys have had for going against this kind of thing? I find myself scratching my head looking through all the aeldari units (forgeworld included) and I'm not seeing a way to handle it. We seem to lack the sniper options to deal with that many characters and the weight of fire options to deal with that many chaff.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Sun Aug 27 2017, 16:44

The game itself is lacking in means of effectively dealing with horde.

Previously, the answer would have been to spam Razorwing flocks (with support) and simply out-spam them whilst hitting at range with everything else.

Now, though... Fliers?

We don't really have the tools to take out such lists.

Sniping characters with members of my above 'silly list' would be helpful, but even without force multiplication, the horde is strong.

Play the objective, bring a Farseer, cast Doom and hope you can chew your way through.

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Sun Aug 27 2017, 17:02

speaking of smite spam, would it be a viable tactic to bring like a detachment of CW farseers and maybe eldrad?
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Sun Aug 27 2017, 17:04

I think it's cheaper and more efficient to bring smite fodder, like birdies.
You could play the dispelling game, but it's expensive and unreliable.

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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Sun Aug 27 2017, 17:24

I thought about bringing back my birds despite the point increase, but the smites alone would average 20 wounds which is 5 dead birds a phase and if I'm putting the birds up there to eat smites it means the 120 plaguebearers or the hidden princes can just jump up and charge them. I can't see how to get them to last more than a turn or 2 even if I bring a dozen of them.

Right now I'm looking at bringing in more dark reapers and disintegrators but I'm just not seeing any units that can put out enough shots/attacks to get their points back against 7 point plaguebearers. I even tried to split damage and take advantage of morale issues but in 1 of my shooting phases he actually ended up with more models than he started thanks to daemonic instability.

Regarding using eldar to smite spam ourselves, I wouldn't bother. You can't compete with units like malefic lords that get full strength smite for 30 points. Farseers cost almost 4 times as much and warlocks cost more but have a shorter range and less powerful smite (and less wounds for icing). We could not match them in smite output or durability from bunker units.
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PostSubject: Re: Dealing with popular lists and units   Sat Sep 02 2017, 06:36

@Ikol wrote:
The game itself is lacking in means of effectively dealing with horde.

Previously, the answer would have been to spam Razorwing flocks (with support) and simply out-spam them whilst hitting at range with everything else.

Now, though...  Fliers?

We don't really have the tools to take out such lists.

Sniping characters with members of my above 'silly list' would be helpful, but even without force multiplication, the horde is strong.

Play the objective, bring a Farseer, cast Doom and hope you can chew your way through.

I agree, hordes are the thing in the game atm. I think there just isn't any real answer to hordes of orks, conscripts and such.

I dont know if any flier can do enough damage to make a serious effect. I think hordes would be put down a bit if leadership had any effect on the game. Now everything just auto passes morale checks or is doing them at LD10
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