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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Wed Oct 04 2017, 23:12

Isnt there a coven in the fluff that has messed around with psychic abilities, experimenting with augmentation and technology that can do the equivalent of psychic powers without actually being a psycher? I would love to have "psycher" in the dark eldar that way, not actually psycher but have augmentations so advanced it could easily be confused as such ... I've heard that dark eldar did have psycher back in third edition (don't know how reliable they are as I haven't seen a third edition codex) and they were taken away in 5th. Honestly now that Yvraine has caused mass turmoil in the dark city I don't see why we can't have them back ... honestly they could easily provide the force multiplier that everyone agrees we need. But I also see the side of the argument for not having them.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Wed Oct 04 2017, 23:47

I'd rather just see "enhances" that stop powers.

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RegoCrux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 03:44

Yeah, I agree with enhancements. Psykers are against fluff. Slaanesh would have a field day with Drukhari who who willingly try to touch the warp in any way.
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Burnage
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 03:57

@RegoCrux wrote:
Yeah, I agree with enhancements. Psykers are against fluff. Slaanesh would have a field day with Drukhari who who willingly try to touch the warp in any way.

It's always seemed fitting to me that some Dark Eldar would probably be arrogant enough to go entirely against the demands of reason and start working on their psychic powers anyways.
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RegoCrux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 04:51

@Burnage wrote:
It's always seemed fitting to me that some Dark Eldar would probably be arrogant enough to go entirely against the demands of reason and start working on their psychic powers anyways.

Oh, absolutely. We call them Slaanesh's Breakfast Wink
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 05:54

We can develop psychic powers very soon. Slaanesh might die in a close future Wink

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 06:04

Enslaved and heavily drugged imperial psykers make sense too. Maybe the black ships of the imperium are tolerated for another reason if xenos pirates hunt down un sanctioned psykers to use as basically bombs.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 07:09

I would also rather have the anti psyker then psykers in our army.

But in a balanced way, not the inquisitor method of you can either be a psyker or be a psyker but not use powers but still able to deny for the same point cost.

@ regocrux I like the suggestion of some shuffling with the detachments, but then we open up the can of worms that played a large part of ruining 40k in 7th for me. Also the maximum number of detachment is very low. Usually just 2 (for 1k battles) or 3 (2k battles), which means even if you would need less to fill a detachment you still cannot have more detachments. Or you start changing that as well en then it is only a matter of time before the whole detachments as a limiting factor are thrown out.

I don't think we need to be more hammery or more squishy. To me we already feel very squishy, who else pays 17 points for a standard (ie not carrying a special 10 point gun) t3 5+ trooper?
While our vehicles are a lot thougher then before they are still very squishy compared to other vehicles, which often have t7 and 3+.



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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 08:49

Some sort of arcane tech that triggers Perils whenever a psyker uses a power within x inches or something like that. Not a psychic power itself but something to defend against them with that is also offensive and makes your opponent make tactical choices rather than a no brainer decision.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 08:53

I think it makes sense for a race that dislikes/fears/avoids the warp that they would have some kind of defense against it...Haemy's are awesome fluff and every DE army should have one and GW need to make them auto picks. Anti-Warp wargear would be so sweet.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 09:26

Yeah why dont we just get a -1 12" to cast against us? >Sad

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 09:52

Maybe there could be some tech that uses the webway to shield against warp attacks.

Smite is too powerful because it is too easy to cast. Its almost a guaranteed wound on something which is wrong. When your tank is on one wound and the opponent has a choice between using smite or a lascannon...it doesn't sit well with me that its too easy a choice. I don't think smite should work against vehicles, or at the very least it should be harder to cast against vehicles...the one good thing about it is that it has to be directed against the closest target at least.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 10:16

I actually like how smite works.

It makes for more tactical play because it is very good against some targets and useless against others. But you must target the closest.
The only problem with smite comes from being able to cast it infinite times.
They should have made it that every time you cast smite after the first you suffer a penalty of 1 or 2 for each time the power is cast before.

And ins ome cases where models have so much manouvrability that the limitation of closest target is practically nonexcistant (all those flying cc beasts with smite)
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RegoCrux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 10:17

I'd like to see Crucibles as something like a smite that can only target psykers and is usable every turn in the psychic phase.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 10:54

@|Meavar wrote:
I actually like how smite works.

It makes for more tactical play because it is very good against some targets and useless against others. But you must target the closest.
The only problem with smite comes from being able to cast it infinite times.
They should have made it that every time you cast smite after the first you suffer a penalty of 1 or 2 for each time the power is cast before.

And ins ome cases where models have so much manouvrability that the limitation of closest target is practically nonexcistant (all those flying cc beasts with smite)

How is it "very good against some targets and useless against others"

It deals D3/D6 mortal wounds against any target so it is useful against everything.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 11:03

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@|Meavar wrote:
I actually like how smite works.

It makes for more tactical play because it is very good against some targets and useless against others. But you must target the closest.
The only problem with smite comes from being able to cast it infinite times.
They should have made it that every time you cast smite after the first you suffer a penalty of 1 or 2 for each time the power is cast before.

And ins ome cases where models have so much manouvrability that the limitation of closest target is practically nonexcistant (all those flying cc beasts with smite)

How is it "very good against some targets and useless against others"

It deals D3/D6 mortal wounds against any target so it is useful against everything.

Well it's less useful against anything with a 'Disgustingly Resilient' type ability that allows them to save the wounds or that can Deny The Witch to negate the attack completely and it's more effective against anything that cannot Deny The Witch.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 11:12

Disgustingly Resilient works against all damage therefore there is no weapon/smite that universally works better against it therefore nothing works worse against it.

Sure Deny the Witch is handy but in general Smite is still useful against everything put on the table...I haven't done the math but it wouldn't surprise me if massed Smite is better at taking out a Landraider than the equivalent points cost of Lascannons.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 11:26

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Disgustingly Resilient works against all damage therefore there is no weapon/smite that universally works better against it therefore nothing works worse against it.

Doesn't change the fact that Smite is less effective against a target with that ability though.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 12:23

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Disgustingly Resilient works against all damage therefore there is no weapon/smite that universally works better against it therefore nothing works worse against it.

Doesn't change the fact that Smite is less effective against a target with that ability though.

Yes but when everything is less effective then I find it a poor example to use. Sorry.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 17:25

In my experience, mortal wounds are far from the "universal tool" they appear to be. Sure, they can beat everything, but they are often costly and not dealt in great numbers.

- They are specialized in damaging units that rely on invulnerable saves. That's their primary target, and they are more effective than anything else. Mortal wounds is key to beating harlequins, IMO.
- They are still very good at damaging units that are overall tough : high Toughness or good save. But many weapons can be more effective for that job : it's a lot easier/cheaper to destroy Carnifexes with Dark Lances than with smites.
- They are of limited use when your target has a huge HP pool : hordes of low-value units or big, big tough things. I wouldn't consider smites to be a good tool to deal with hordes of orks/conscripts.



Just consider the following : a single smite will kill the same amount of Harlequin Troupe and Conscripts. Since it is priced accordingly to its key targets (in this case, Harlies), it is not ideal to deal with conscripts.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 19:00

@Mppqlmd wrote:
In my experience, mortal wounds are far from the "universal tool" they appear to be. Sure, they can beat everything, but they are often costly and not dealt in great numbers.

- They are specialized in damaging units that rely on invulnerable saves. That's their primary target, and they are more effective than anything else. Mortal wounds is key to beating harlequins, IMO.
- They are still very good at damaging units that are overall tough : high Toughness or good save. But many weapons can be more effective for that job : it's a lot easier/cheaper to destroy Carnifexes with Dark Lances than with smites.
- They are of limited use when your target has a huge HP pool : hordes of low-value units or big, big tough things. I wouldn't consider smites to be a good tool to deal with hordes of orks/conscripts.



Just consider the following : a single smite will kill the same amount of Harlequin Troupe and Conscripts. Since it is priced accordingly to its key targets (in this case, Harlies), it is not ideal to deal with conscripts.

Smite spam is there to stop 2++/3++ deathstar ish units. Its more of a check and balance system and i like it for that purpose.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 19:17

Yep, its existance serves that purpose, i think you're right.
But i see a lot of "Mortal wounds are great against everything" around here, and that's just not true. They actually serve a pretty specific role !

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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 19:38

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Yep, its existance serves that purpose, i think you're right.
But i see a lot of "Mortal wounds are great against everything" around here, and that's just not true. They actually serve a pretty specific role !

That might be b.c you can have insane MW/Smite spam lists, via Nids/GSC and Chaos.

These 2 armies can make lists that can pump out 70+ MW a turn....... FW has stated they will fix this and are working on it now.

Hopefully it stays a check and balance utility to spot lists like Magnus+Mortarion combos with 3++/5+++ and re-rolls.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 21:52

If we are going to bring mortal wounds into the argument then I will make them my next point for why DE psychers or equivalent should be a thing ... We have 1 rather unreliable way to do mortal wounds (3 if you count haywire blasters, and we don't, and the crucible, but that is one use only and only against psychers) ... Every other army (except T'au and necrons but they get an automatic smite every turn so meh) has access to multiple ways of delivering mortal wounds via smite spam or other weapons. But again I can see why people don't want psychers amongst the true kin ... for many it just wouldn't feel fluffy ...
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: DE Codex Wishlisting   Thu Oct 05 2017, 22:09

Mortal wounds for Dark Eldar :
- Ossefactors
- Voidraven
- Ichor Injector
- Flesh Gauntlets
- HWB
- Crucible of maledictions
- Klaivex
- Shaimeshi blades
- Baleblasts
- Stunclaw
- Grav talons/Cluster caltrops
- Exploding vehicles (this one is just for the lols)

I don't think many factions have access to that many sources of mortal wounds. Agreed, most of these are underpowered, but the point is still there : instead of asking for psychic powers (that are, in the current lore, not fluffy at all), we should ask for our MW sources to be more viable.


The Dark Elves in WHFB had an artefact called the "Helm of Spite", which caused all wizards, friend or foe, in a 12" radius to have a Mishap on any double result, instead of only "double 1". It was hugely popular, and generally played on a Dark Pegasus Captain that flew right in the enemy's face to disrupt the wizardry.

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