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 Where do we stand compared to other armies?

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 11:12

I would like to see :
- Archon : reroll 1's to hit at range aura, can give a 3+ poison to one unit at start of game.
- Succubus : reroll 1's to hit in cc for everyone, reroll 1's to wound in cc for cult units.
- Haemy : current buff for everyone, +1 to inured from pain for Coven units.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 11:21

@Mppqlmd wrote:
I would like to see :
- Archon : reroll 1's to hit at range aura, can give a 3+ poison to one unit at start of game.
- Succubus : reroll 1's to hit in cc for everyone, reroll 1's to wound in cc for cult units.
- Haemy : current buff for everyone, +1 to inured from pain for Coven units.

I'll throw out a variation along these lines:
- Archon: reroll 1s to-hit aura. When shooting, Kabalite units instead reroll all failed to-hit rolls.
- Succubus: reroll 1s to-wound aura. During the fight phase, Wych units instead reroll all failed to-wound rolls.
- Haemonculus: I'd reverse the buff - with all units getting the 5+ FNP and Coven units also getting +1T (though I'd specify non-vehicles for this).

Do you think the Archon would be too good if he still also handed out 3+ poison or such to a unit?
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 11:22

Yep, i think he would kinda be broken.
But the 3+ poison could be a stratagem anyway.

It's kinda sad that our "Homemade archon" completly overrides the hope of seeing splinter racks back :/

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 11:40

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Yep, i think he would kinda be broken.
But the 3+ poison could be a stratagem anyway.

It's kinda sad that our "Homemade archon" completly overrides the hope of seeing splinter racks back :/

Well, Splinter Racks would give Kabalites rerolls while still in their transport.

As it is, they'd have to disembark before they could benefit from either of our Archon's rerolls.

Hell, the archon himself can't benefit while aboard a transport.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 11:45

Indeed. But there would be no point in disembarking to profit from an aura that you could get from splinter racks inside your vehicle Very Happy

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 12:24

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Indeed. But there would be no point in disembarking to profit from an aura that you could get from splinter racks inside your vehicle Very Happy

Yeah, it's why I'm still unsure that the Archon should have an aura at all. Honestly, your version of him was probably better.

What if the Archon had something like this:
"At the beginning of the game you may select a single Infantry unit in your army as the Chosen of this Archon. Choose one of the abilities below. The Archon and his Chosen unit gains the benefit of this ability for the duration of the game. If your army contains multiple Archons, each one must select a different unit as his Chosen."
Mastery of Poison: The unit's melee weapons gain Death's Touch (this weapon never needs worse than a 4+ to wound). If the Chosen is <Kabal>, it's Splinter weapons wound non-vehicles on a 3+.
Glory Seekers: The unit may reroll failed to-wound rolls against Vehicles and Monsters. If the Chosen is <Kabal>, models may add 1 to their damage rolls against Vehicles and Monsters.
Drinkers of Agony: This unit treats the PfP table as being 1 turn later than the current turn. If the Chosen is <Kabal>, its models may add 1 to their Inured to Suffering rolls.
Champions of Slaughter: The unit may reroll to-hit rolls of 1 against Infantry. If the unit is <Kabal>, it instead rerolls all failed to-hit rolls against Infantry.
Survivors: The unit gains a 5+ Invulnerable Save. If the unit is <Kabal> it instead gains a 4+ Invulnerable Save.
Unmatched Speed: The unit can charge even if it Advanced this turn. If the unit is <Kabal>, its Movement is increased by 3".

This is just off the top of my head, so they'd probably need to be tweaked to make them more balanced, but hopefully you get the basic idea.

I was also wondering whether each Archon should have to select a different ability for his Chosen as well (like with Combat Drugs).
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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 12:58

Just give him reroll 1s to hit for <kabal> within 6" like everyone else and he's at least not strictly a tax. I would be happy.

That said I'm not on the doom & gloom boat, 7e was worse and if Chaos can get a good codex then surely so can we... eventually.

E: I am also happy we are not top of the pile when I think about it. Everyone complaining about scatter laser ynnari when ypu played it sucked.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 13:50

Honestly, I think an aura that grants re-rolls is pretty generic. I'd take inspiration from the "Marked for Death" ability from the Purge Coterie. In the shooting phase an Archon can choose an enemy unit in line of sight. All <Kabal> units may re-roll failed hits when attacking this unit.

Not only would this buff apply to units inside transports, but you also have a much bigger thread radius as it can also affect Ravagers/Lance Scourges in your corner of the map.

It is also much more fitting fluff wise. Why would an Archon buff his own units? He just sees them as throw-away tools, he wants to see results. He could have some kind of gravitational targeting device that bends space-time. This device redirect projectiles that would normally miss so that they still hit the target.

@The Shredder wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
Indeed. But there would be no point in disembarking to profit from an aura that you could get from splinter racks inside your vehicle Very Happy

Yeah, it's why I'm still unsure that the Archon should have an aura at all. Honestly, your version of him was probably better.

What if the Archon had something like this:
"At the beginning of the game you may select a single Infantry unit in your army as the Chosen of this Archon. Choose one of the abilities below. The Archon and his Chosen unit gains the benefit of this ability for the duration of the game. If your army contains multiple Archons, each one must select a different unit as his Chosen."
Mastery of Poison: The unit's melee weapons gain Death's Touch (this weapon never needs worse than a 4+ to wound). If the Chosen is <Kabal>, it's Splinter weapons wound non-vehicles on a 3+.
Glory Seekers: The unit may reroll failed to-wound rolls against Vehicles and Monsters. If the Chosen is <Kabal>, models may add 1 to their damage rolls against Vehicles and Monsters.
Drinkers of Agony: This unit treats the PfP table as being 1 turn later than the current turn. If the Chosen is <Kabal>, its models may add 1 to their Inured to Suffering rolls.
Champions of Slaughter: The unit may reroll to-hit rolls of 1 against Infantry. If the unit is <Kabal>, it instead rerolls all failed to-hit rolls against Infantry.
Survivors: The unit gains a 5+ Invulnerable Save. If the unit is <Kabal> it instead gains a 4+ Invulnerable Save.
Unmatched Speed: The unit can charge even if it Advanced this turn. If the unit is <Kabal>, its Movement is increased by 3".

This is just off the top of my head, so they'd probably need to be tweaked to make them more balanced, but hopefully you get the basic idea.

I was also wondering whether each Archon should have to select a different ability for his Chosen as well (like with Combat Drugs).

Sounds very much like an ability of a named HQ to me. Like the Baron and his retinue with 3+ poison.

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 16:11

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Yep, i think he would kinda be broken.
But the 3+ poison could be a stratagem anyway.

It's kinda sad that our "Homemade archon" completly overrides the hope of seeing splinter racks back :/

Nah. Splinter Racks do what they always did.
Twin Linked.

Twin Linked has changed; welcome to rapid fire 2 Rifles and Rapid Fire 6 Cannons.

Raider with 2*Trueborn, 4 Cannons and Racks...

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 23:15

@Mppqlmd wrote:
On a scale from 1 (God) to 5 (trash)

- Mobility : 2 (which is shocking, a few armies are faster than us, namely CW)
- Anti-tank ability : 1 (darklight is THAT good in 8th edition)
- Anti-elite ability : 1
- Anti-horde ability : 5
- Resilience : 3 (vehicles have become very sturdy)
- Horde possibilities : 5
- CC ability : 3-4

So in a Horde meta, we struggle very much. But in more elite match-ups (and especially in Mek match ups) we are very capable. So when the conscript spam will get nerfed (which will probably be done soon), we'll probably shine.

What planet are you from? WTF? 1 = trash and 5 = god, literally your the 1st person i've seen doing 1 = good lol. Have you ever taken surveys before? XD im just playing dont get mad

On topic, DE are IMO high Mid or Low top tier atm. Eldar Ynnari is better with FW stuff and spam, outside of bird/conscript spam Harlequins ranked higher than both DE and Eldar in tournaments.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Mon Aug 21 2017, 00:43

@Ikol wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
Yep, i think he would kinda be broken.
But the 3+ poison could be a stratagem anyway.

It's kinda sad that our "Homemade archon" completly overrides the hope of seeing splinter racks back :/

Nah.  Splinter Racks do what they always did.
Twin Linked.

Twin Linked has changed; welcome to rapid fire 2 Rifles and Rapid Fire 6 Cannons.

Raider with 2*Trueborn, 4 Cannons and Racks...

Hell, if IG can do that with their lasguns with an order, I see no reason we cannot do the same thing with an upgrade.

Remember, many armies can get a second shooting phase through various means, even on heavy weapons squads. Giving us some extra poison output is not the end of the world.

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Mon Aug 21 2017, 01:25

I'd even consider just making it 'weapon racks'...

Any ranged weapon carried by a passenger becomes Twin Linked whilst the passenger is embarked.

15 points.

Also: Raiders Transport 12, Venoms Transport 6, Tantalus Transport 20.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Mon Aug 21 2017, 07:30

Making everything twin linked I think might be pushing it. then the cost has to go up drastically.
you can have 4 dark lances in a raider, or 8 blasters. You want to double that output, that means weapon racks should cost close to the same as the bare weapons probably 80-120 points, no way that is going to happen. Sure you can get a discount because you do not get more bodies, but even then if it becomes cheaper then 60 pts it is to cheap and for 60 pts it is insanely overpriced for anything that is not as much dark light as possible. then again they now priced splinter cannons at 15 pt each, so the playtesters probably think 60 pts for doubling the number of poison shots for a kabalite squad worth it.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Tue Aug 22 2017, 03:45

Then reclassify it to "Weapons that are not Heavy", and make it 20-25

Marines, Chaos, Daemons, Ynnari, (and I think maybe Tau and Orks? Not sure...) have Units that get to shoot more than once in a turn.

Transports that cost ~140 points (often more than the transported) giving the embarked Units Twin linked isn't insane by comparison.

We also lack psychic ability (offence and defence - Crucible is nothing).

Twin Linked is also not nearly as strong as another body. Not only is there the absence of an extra Wound, but the absence of the ability to split fire. That Double Dark Lance is locked onto firing at 1 Unit a Turn.

But I agree with your sentiment that Twin EVERYTHING would be very, very powerful with the right loadouts and agreeable targets.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Tue Aug 22 2017, 20:03

Boy, there is a lot of doom and gloom on this thread. I'll agree the index seems a bit weaksauce, and I'm really bummed about the state of reavers (my favorite unit) but I hope I can have better luck than all this. I don't understand some of the nerfs, and a lot of stuff doesn't seem to synergize that well (obsec only being on troops from detachments that all have the same <keyword>?), but I still have some high hopes for the future.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Tue Aug 22 2017, 23:50

The big bonuses that the new codexes have been getting have been a real series of body blows. We started off in a damn good position, but we're getting hit hard now in the comparative meta.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Wed Aug 23 2017, 07:48

@Jimsolo wrote:
The big bonuses that the new codexes have been getting have been a real series of body blows.  We started off in a damn good position, but we're getting hit hard now in the comparative meta.

You mean just the way it has always been Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Wed Aug 23 2017, 08:37

@Jimsolo wrote:
The big bonuses that the new codexes have been getting have been a real series of body blows.  We started off in a damn good position, but we're getting hit hard now in the comparative meta.

I haven't seen it, but from most ppl have said, the marine codex hasn't changed them too much except that they got new units. But the Chaos one has changed a bit with quite a few buffs. And I haven't heard anything about the grey knights.

With this in mind it doesn't sound to me like it has changed that much, guardsman and tzeench spam still sounds like it is going to rule the airwaves, but at least flier spam has been kicked to the curb which was a boon for us in the meta.

I still feel quite happy with my choices when building a list, at least the anti tank portion, I'm really unsure as to what to take against troops. They seems to be our big blindspot at the moment.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Wed Aug 23 2017, 09:09

They both changed ALOT

Ultra Marines didnt change thats what you heard (b.c Girlyman is just as OP and the army plays the same with or w/o the codex), but all other chapters did for sure. Salamanders are now Lascannon/Plasma Spam where Raven guard are ML spam with Anti-charge units. Then you have WS's... that got worst and players dont use Kharn from the Codex b.c he lost his bike.

Everything basically got cheaper and players now are also more willing to use much more units and wargear.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Wed Aug 23 2017, 09:12

That isn't factoring in the Chapter Tactics.

Raven Guard get -1 to hit on all CT units more than 12" from the shooter.

Ultramarines got army-wide +1 LD and Fall Back and Shoot.

Ect, ect. That is a non-trivial bonus, and it's free.

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