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 Where do we stand compared to other armies?

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 10:19

I've been seeing a lot of doom and gloom recently about where we stand in a tier list against other armies. But I don't really get it.

Now this may be because I haven't played enough games this edition or against the conscript board of doom lists. But against the armies that I have played which have been mainly mech focused we have done pretty well. As per stand with our dark light spamming nature, but in compared w my nids we seem in a much better place.

We have a few dud units, but on the whole I'd say we are very competitive at least with good movement and shooting we still terrorise most armies I'd say

where does everyone else think we fit in amongst the other armies?
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 10:58

On a scale from 1 (God) to 5 (trash)

- Mobility : 2 (which is shocking, a few armies are faster than us, namely CW)
- Anti-tank ability : 1 (darklight is THAT good in 8th edition)
- Anti-elite ability : 1
- Anti-horde ability : 5
- Resilience : 3 (vehicles have become very sturdy)
- Horde possibilities : 5
- CC ability : 3-4

So in a Horde meta, we struggle very much. But in more elite match-ups (and especially in Mek match ups) we are very capable. So when the conscript spam will get nerfed (which will probably be done soon), we'll probably shine.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 10:59

I have played mostly against SM since 8th, since 75% of my store seems to play them.

Against small elite style armies, we seem to absolutely shred.  We don't have all the toys and fun things that imperium has, but we can ally in 2.5 other factions to help shore up some weak points, and we can put out a good deal of high strength shots.

We are not the army with the fastest units, but our army as a whole is consistently fast and is able to act in tandem with the other part of it, which really gives us great mobility

Perhaps this is just my play style, but where I have struggled the most is vs swarms. I don't feel we have the tools to effectively deal with 100 conscripts. Partly I think that is just the rules for the edition. I'd love to see a rule that any weapon with variable shots always gets the max number if fired at an enemy unit with over 10 models.

But I digress.

I think DE are in a very solid position, and even without all the toys, we are shredding other armies.

Edit:

@Mppqlmd wrote:
On a scale from 1 (God) to 5 (trash)

- Mobility : 2 (which is shocking, a few armies are faster than us, namely CW)

I see this argument a lot, and want to address it. Yes, other armies have a few units that are faster than us, but they either pay a lot more for them or sacrifice something else. I love my raiders because I can shove two Kabalite squads in, and with a dl on the raider, I can move and shoot all I want. I agree that some other armies have parts that are faster, but as a whole I have found the true kin to really out perform everyone else in terms of raw speed of the army as a whole
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 11:15

Its important to recognise that Dark Eldar players are long suffering.
I get that new players to army may not get where we come from, but some of the despair is.....traditional. Or at the very least, part of a joke. Its light hearted on the most, but Dark Eldar have not historically been great. Its improving, but we have deep seated issues to get over with careful therapy. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 11:16

Quote :
I see this argument a lot, and want to address it. Yes, other armies have a few units that are faster than us, but they either pay a lot more for them or sacrifice something else. I love my raiders because I can shove two Kabalite squads in, and with a dl on the raider, I can move and shoot all I want. I agree that some other armies have parts that are faster, but as a whole I have found the true kin to really out perform everyone else in terms of raw speed of the army as a whole

Wave serpents are more point-efficient than raiders, so i can't see why CW are paying more for their superior mobility. They just have access to Aethersails (Star engine), while we lost access to it.

Anyway, CW aren't even the top mobility army. That would be a tie between Harlies and Grey knights, for me.

Quote :
Its important to recognise that Dark Eldar players are long suffering.
I get that new players to army may not get where we come from, but some of the despair is.....traditional. Or at the very least, part of a joke. Its light hearted on the most, but Dark Eldar have not historically been great. Its improving, but we have deep seated issues to get over with careful therapy. Very Happy
It's getting critical to install a "like" button on this forum Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 11:36

One could argue that Chaos Space Marines can be a top tier speed army. In addition to the Helldrake's 42 inch charge range, renegades can advance then charge, they have multiple deep strike units, Alpha legion can infiltrate a lot of their dudes, Black Legion can treat any rapid fire weapon as an assault weapon when convenient, ect.

And of course Space Marines can always Mass Drop Pod for mobility, should anyone try and do anything better than them. And Raven Guard can infiltrate. And White Scars are insanely fast, ect ect.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 11:43

Most army have speed/infiltrate/DS options. That's nothing special.
GK are really amazing because of the unique teleport power.
Harlies are amazing because of the Rising Crescendo/Flip belts/M8 combo that makes even the slowest infantry move 9-14 AND charge, while moving through cover/units.

My definition of a God Tier army in mobility (which can be discussed, ofc) is an army that has speed no matter what they do, no matter what they pick. With DE, most options have access to speed, but some don't (engines...). And the problem of HQs in vehicles makes it a mess as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 11:49

@Faitherun wrote:

I see this argument a lot, and want to address it. Yes, other armies have a few units that are faster than us, but they either pay a lot more for them or sacrifice something else.

Two points:

Firstly, we also sacrifice something for speed - namely durability.

Second, most of our stuff doesn't even have the option of paying for any mobility besides that of a  transport. Yes, SM Captains pay for their bikes and jump packs (why wouldn't they?), but those are still options that they have available to them. We don't. None of our HQs have mobility options. None of our Troops have mobility options. Just one of our Elites has a mobility option, and even that is a one-use Deep Strike ability. And just one of our Heavy Support units has a mobility option - and that's because it's a vehicle.

Frankly, I'd consider Mppqlmd's rating of our mobility to be overly generous.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 11:52

I rated 2 because we still have a large access to the "fly" keyword, which is powerful.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 11:55

@Mppqlmd wrote:
I rated 2 because we still have a large access to the "fly" keyword, which is powerful.

It is, but it also comes at a price since there are many specialized weapons that get bonuses against the Fly keyword.

Unlike Ultramarines, who can all fall back and still shoot for a measly -1 to hit, or the Imperial Guard who can fall back and shoot thanks to an order.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 12:06

I don't think Chapter Tactics work on vehicles. So a ravager can't be glued down, a land raider can.

And "fly" isn't just falling back. It's also a huge boon in mobility, that we DE players often take for granted Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 12:35

I agree that our options for mobility are very limited. Namely, we have raiders/venoms, ravagers, reavers, hellions, scourges, flyers, .... and that is it imo.

Only two can transport and so give mobility to the rest of the army.

TBH, a raider with a DL I still think is significantly better than a Wave Serpent. I have not run numbers on this, and am going from memory, so am probably about to have myself proven wrong by the interwebs but oh well....

A raider can move a full 14", ignoring terrain, shoot it's DL, then assault 2-12, giving it a threat range of 16-26". On that assault, it is striking first and doing mortal wounds.

There are a few key components to this.
1. Fly. We ignore terrain when moving, which is huge for playing hide and seek or making a b-line to enemy targets

2. assault weapon on the boat. Our best Anti Tank weapon becomes assault, meaning we can move fully and fire where ever we want, with out penalty. Sure, CW can take the one bit of war gear (for which they pay extra) and then they can move and shoot at the closest target... not quite the same tactical flexibility there which leads to my third point

3. We have a presence in CC. Most vehicles pretty well suck in close combat. Ours, while not amazing, are decent. And for a 1 pt upgrade, you get a 50% chance of dropping down a mortal wound. Of the top of my head, I know of no other vehicle capable of doing this, let alone for so cheap a value! This then force the opponent to either fall back, or stay in cc with us. If they fall back, that unit isn't shooting, taking objectives, etc. If they stay in well...

4. Fly. We really don't care. We are dropping back ourselves with little to no penalty. I say little to no, because the unit inside do take a penalty, but that brings up the next point.

5. That unit inside has not been sitting idly by. We are open topped, which means when the raider moved up previously, that unit got to fire. I tend to take two 5 man squads of warriors with a blaster. If I have the points, two blasterborn squads. Now, this unit got to shoot the turn we moved up, before having gotten a charge off. This is where the mobility for the rest of our army comes in. Orks are the only other army I can think if capable of using open topped vehicles, and theirs don't have fly.

6. Disembarking occurs before movement. This small point means, as many have already discovered, that we can disembark our troops before the raider moves. This is huge, if used right. Because the penalty to shooting occurs when a unit falls back, but, if you disembark the units inside of the raider before it falls back, no penalty. Now, those two units are able to move, with a decent movement speed themselves, shoot, and assault. With split fire. What was one target, is now three. If my opponent decided to fall back with his squad, my raider is able to move fully again, shoot fully again, and assault fully again. If they blow up the raider, I should lose 1-3 guys, a lot less than if they ran up the board. And if they stay in cc with me, my squad is disembarking while the raider flies off to make a nuisance of itself elsewhere.

Now, all of this, if I remember right, comes in a bit cheaper than a wave serpent. Our raiders are not as fast, nor as durable, nor with as many options. There are a number of small improvements needed and some more wargear options would be nice too. By the way, almost all the above points apply to the Venom too, just as an anti infantry role over anti tank.

The biggest advantage that we have over CWE is we are open topped, and what that does to the firepower of our army.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 12:39

The main selling point of the Wave Serpent is the fact that his main weapon is Twin (so he has access to a twin Dark lance, basically), and he has a secondary weapon. So while open topped is a big one, the Wave Serpent is far better at shooting on his own.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 13:05

Wave Serpent with Twin Bright Lance, Twin Catapult and CTM (163 pts) vs Raider with DL and Prow (116 pts)

If the Serpent moves, it's two shots are hitting on a 4+, unless it chooses to shoot at the closest unit. This limits its tactical flexibility. Yes, it has slightly more durability, and slightly better fire power. And for two Wave Serpents, I can take about 3 raiders. More targets, more wounds, still less firepower, but that is where open topped comes in.

And this all started as a discussion about the speed of the army.

Open topped adds speed to the rest of my army, and that speed is used in tactical situations during the movement phase to better position the army. As just a raider vs WS - WS wins. But Raider with troops in it vs WS with troops in it, the raider adds more speed to the army as a whole, and in ways that very few other armies can. In no way is our firepower diminished by putting units in a raider - indeed it is enhanced. But a WS does not allow embarked units to shoot. It can get them to where they need to be to shoot, but those units don't get to shoot out of it and allow the vehicle to absorb the punishment in return.

So I would strongly claim that a Raider offers better speed to the army as a whole than a WS does.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 13:12

I'll contest that we're a mobile army. As it has been stated before, we're just an army with a couple fast vehicle.

I've lamented this before, but once again, why does Dark Eldar have the slowest chassis of their entire race?

What has happened is that aside from two units, we've had our deepstrike gutted. An 87% decrease as a conservative estimate.

Other units have vehicles, and have ample options for infiltrate, scout, and Deep Strike deployments, and when our transports aren't significantly faster than theres, we're overall left at a disadvantage.

I'd venture to say that while DE may be a mid-tier army right now, they have some of the worst HQs in the game. From Lackluster Aura buffs (+1 Leadership to two units who will never be in a squad fewer than ten and almost always rely on their transport? You shouldn't have, Archon..no really, you're drunk, go home.), frankly pitiful special characters, (140 points for Drazhar? Really?) And being forced to sacrifice unit viability to squeeze them into a transport at all. (Oh, your Archon wants to ride with Incubi? How cute.)
I'm not saying we're terrible, it's just there's some frankly asinine decisions, terrible wargear options (Haywire, Heat Lances, Shredders, Splinter Cannons, debatably Blasters..) that lead to people moaning and complaining.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 13:17

@TheBaconPope wrote:

I'd venture to say that while DE may be a mid-tier army right now, they have some of the worst HQs in the game. From Lackluster Aura buffs (+1 Leadership to two units who will never be in a squad fewer than ten and almost always rely on their transport? You shouldn't have, Archon..no really, you're drunk, go home.), frankly pitiful special characters, (140 points for Drazhar? Really?) And being forced to sacrifice unit viability to squeeze them into a transport at all. (Oh, your Archon wants to ride with Incubi? How cute.)
I'm not saying we're terrible, it's just there's some frankly asinine decisions, terrible wargear options (Haywire, Heat Lances, Shredders, Splinter Cannons, debatably Blasters..) that lead to people moaning and complaining.

Id agree with all of this except the blaster bit. They are decently spam able and able to be put on several different units. That and we can't add them to squads in transports
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 13:24

As a Mechanized Craftworld Eldar player, I completely disagree with the above assessment of the Wave Serpent.

Firstly, that tank is obscenely durable. The Serpent Shield's -1 to incoming damage on top of Toughness 7 and 13! wounds mean that it can tank more lascannons than a landraider! And that is without factoring in the wargear options for boosting speed and durability.

Secondly, you fail to factor in that the CE get access to plenty of useful buffs that help negate the penalty for moving. Be it a nearby Autarch for rerolling 1's, or a Farseer for reroll failed shots. That isn't even factoring in the force multiplier of Doom.

Thirdly, the fact is that the Wave Serpent has far more useful and varied loads of troops, and can take larger squads or characters, is huge.

Fourthly, the Wave Serpent has plenty of weapon options rather than just 2, and the various options make it far more flexible. Hell, even throwing on the SC instead of the twin catapults means you are getting 3 heavy weapons for around 150% of the cost of our 1.

Open Topped is nice, but footdar can advance and still shoot at more or less full capacity, so a shooty army is still very mobile for them even without open topped.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 13:30

@Faitherun wrote:

And this all started as a discussion about the speed of the army.

This all started about a comparison between DE and all other armies, on every criterium.
A Wave serpent has twice the AT power of a Raider, and half the AI power of a Venom. It has 3 more wounds, 2 more T, a special shield, more mobility that can be exchanged for mortal wounds.

When your only vehicles are so tragically outclassed in every criterium, you can't really claim to be the best.
Being open topped is nice and all. If Necrons or CW had open topped, they would be top meta, because they actually have infantry entries that could dish some damage from the vehicle. Our infantry's shootings ranges from "meh" to "okayish". Compare firedragons and blasterborn, and tell me which one you want in an open topped vehicle.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 13:34

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Faitherun wrote:

And this all started as a discussion about the speed of the army.

This all started about a comparison between DE and all other armies, on every criterium.
A Wave serpent has twice the AT power of a Raider, and half the AI power of a Venom. It has 3 more wounds, 2 more T, a special shield, more mobility that can be exchanged for mortal wounds.

When your only vehicles are so tragically outclassed in every criterium, you can't really claim to be the best.
Being open topped is nice and all. If Necrons or CW had open topped, they would be top meta, because they actually have infantry entries that could dish some damage from the vehicle. Our infantry's shootings ranges from "meh" to "okayish". Compare firedragons and blasterborn, and tell me which one you want in an open topped vehicle.

Fire Dragons are cheaper than Blasterborn btw. Just so you know.

Dire Avengers are catastrophically overpriced though Sad


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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 13:37

@FuelDrop wrote:


Fire Dragons are cheaper than Blasterborn btw. Just so you know.

Dire Avengers are catastrophically overpriced though Sad


Yes. Any opinion on Storm Guardians, though ? Their chainsword looks kinda neat, and flamers are cool Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 13:40

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:


Fire Dragons are cheaper than Blasterborn btw. Just so you know.

Dire Avengers are catastrophically overpriced though Sad


Yes. Any opinion on Storm Guardians, though ? Their chainsword looks kinda neat, and flamers are cool Smile

I am yet to break out my Storm Guardians this edition. I really should bring them back to kick more ass at some point. Their access to Special and Power Weapons, plus Farseer and Warlock buffs, means I rate them as somewhat better than Wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 14:44

Regarding the Wave Serpent comparison, something to consider is that it went from about 125pts (assuming it took a TL Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon) to about 150-160pts.

Basically, it's cost increased by about 30%. And while it does suffer a -1 to-hit when moving and firing Heavy Weapons (though a 5pt upgrade can potentially negate that), it gained a second shot with its primary weapon and is actually as fast as the tiny (and very fragile) Venom.

Now let's look at Venoms and Raiders. Venoms with 2 Splinter Cannons went from 65pts to 95pts (an increase of about 50%), yet their rate of fire was halved at long-range.

Raiders with Dark Lances increased from 60pts to 115pts (almost 100%), whilst Raiders with Disintegrators went from 55pts to 125pts (close to a 150% increase). It also lost the Splinter Racks upgrade - drastically reducing its potential as a gunboat.

What's more, the Wave Serpent gained potential as an assault vehicle (its passengers are no longer prohibited from assaulting on the turn they disembark), while the Venom and Raider lost their assault vehicle statuses - since passengers can no longer disembark after they move.

Put simply, our vehicles suffered drastic increases in cost, yet don't appear to have gained much in the process - and have actually lost a significant amount. The Wave Serpent on the other hand seemed to gain an awful lot in this edition in return for a relatively minor increase in points.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 14:53

Quote :
Put simply, our vehicles suffered drastic increases in cost, yet don't appear to have gained much in the process - and have actually lost a significant amount. The Wave Serpent on the other hand seemed to gain an awful lot in this edition in return for a relatively minor increase in points.

You just hit the nail on the head. One can argue that Wave Serpents aren't a necessary component of a craftworld force. But no one is doubting that DE need their transports, now more than ever. I don't ever recall anyone calling Raiders or Venoms OP, why'd both drastically increase in price, yet take a significant nerf to their intended uses?

Edit: Has anyone taken a look at Starweavers compared to the Venom? Clocking in at 99 points with 2 Shuriken Cannons, opposed to the 95 of a Venom with a similar loadout, the vehicle can roughly be described as, "the Venom, but with none of its limitations."
The Shuriken Cannons will kill 2.44 GEQ and 1.22 MEQ (Opposed to a similar 2.67 and 1.33 of the Cannons)
It automatically advances 6", has a 4+ invuln in all circumstances opposed to a 5+ against shooting, it still has the Hard to Hit rule, plus Open Topped, plus more attacks in melee, plus a better WS and to top it all off with Transport Capacity 6, so there's no problem with sticking a character into the mix as well. All that for the exorbitant fee of four points more than a Venom.
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 00:50

Not to mention that the shuriken cannon will actually wound vehicles
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PostSubject: Re: Where do we stand compared to other armies?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 11:05

Honestly my problem with the army is that we don't synergize very well together. I think the biggest factor in that issue are our terrible hqs. Their auras are just god awful. the archon's leadership buff and the succubus's reroll to hit aren't useful to us because we already have high leadership, BS, and WS on most of the units in our army.
I'd honestly change the archon leadership buff to something along the terms of limiting units to only losing like a single model to moral phase. That change would allow us to actually effectively field large squads without moral issues. I'd also change the succubus's reroll 1s to hit to rerolls to failed wounds. This aura wouldn't be almost redundant in our army and it would actually help a lot in making poison better.
Finally I'd also make the auras on three hqs non specific to a certain sub faction. I think it would be better if that say that the haemy can buff everyone but he buffs his coven units better than cults or kabals. This would allow us to take the aura that best fits what we need no matter what kind of army we have.
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