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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: 3-Dex DE?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 20:56

This is just wishlisting, but I had a thought a little while ago.

Why should we have to settle for one codex?

The Dark Eldar are not one army. They are three armies that share a few common elements, and co-ordinate together. This should be emphasized. Thus, I submit that we do not want one codex. We want three:

Codex: Kabals.
Codex: Wych Cults.
Codex: Haemonculus Covens.

Each of these should function as their own armies in and of themselves, expanding the relevant rosters and fleshing out the units, each army with a unique power from pain style mechanic that suits their specific playstyle:
Kabals get advantages that boost their mobility and firepower, with a nice list of special weapons and enough warrior variants to fill a variety of roles.
Cults get advantages geared for an incredibly rapid, offensively focused force, with various melee units specialized in killing various targets in tight quarters (Eg Monster Hunters, Elite Infantry Killers, Horde Killers, Character duelists).
Covens get advantages to boost survivability, such as better feel no pain and some regeneration. They also get to specialize in terror tactics, horrifying the enemy into submission or pounding them to a pulp. Their big draw would also be a full array of torture engines, not just the two we have now.

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TheHostwiththeMost
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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 21:27

I wish as well!

This would be amazing, however paying to produce 3 codex's for the model range / population of players in Druhkari probably wouldnt be worth it from a business stand point.

I agree though, it would make sense.  They already kind of seperated the covens.  Maybe they will keep it up.  We would almost be like the imperium: CWE, Harly, Corsair, kabals, cults, covens, and ynnari.   Would give us an amazing range of options when it comes to the aeldari playstyles.
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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 21:31

@TheHostwiththeMost wrote:
I wish as well!

This would be amazing, however paying to produce 3 codex's for the model range / population of players in Druhkari probably wouldnt be worth it from a business stand point.

I agree though, it would make sense.  They already kind of seperated the covens.  Maybe they will keep it up.  We would almost be like the imperium: CWE, Harly, Corsair, kabals, cults, covens, and ynnari.   Would give us an amazing range of options when it comes to the aeldari playstyles.

I think that if they put effort in it would be worth it. Business wise it'll mean that each DE player buys 3 books instead of 1, it'll add a huge range of models to the line (and DE models are some of the nicest they make, so that'll get collectors and modelers happy), and it will help them with the faction expansion thing they seem to be doing right now.

I mean, if Death Guard and Thousand Sons get their own books, why not Covens and Cults?

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 21:32

This would either involve everyone getting their own model lines expanded significantly (unlikely) or them ending up like the AELFS in AoS where they're ridiculously fractured.

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 22:01

I agree, the model range is fantastic.  I dont think its very flushed out though.  Most have 1 or two poses and if we split up any more, most brigades will be identical due to only having 1 fast attack, troop, or heavy support choice.

But man would this be cool.  I really hope we get some love this edition.  So much potential if they would invest in a couple more molds.

Edit: So I have been thinking about it, and it seems DE might just fit in as a detachment in Aeldari armies. Its scary to think, but 8th edition looks like its setting the scene for Aeldari armies to have detachments of different eldar and not intending for us to have entire DE / CWE armies (Notice PfP and Battle focus are unit special rules, not army special rules and therefore have no faction requirement). God I hope im wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 22:13

I'm personally of the persuasion that DE need to be less fractured, not more.

When you get down to it, I don't think that DE have the model range to divide themselves up into distinct factions. Like it or not, the Ravager is a staple of anti-tank, despite it being a Kabal only unit. Many a Coven has taken a Jet fighter. And I'd rather like to avoid spending $140 on books just so I can keep the Kabal of the Crimson Lotus with their signature Jetbikes, Arch Dracon Iredaque with her escort of Pain Engines, and Archon Kaestra Fraemarr's ravenous pack of Khymera known simply as "The Hounds."

I digress. Truly, I think the failings of our HQs also stem a lot around being limited to their various sub-factions, where, realistically, only a few units would benefit. The difference between T6 and T7 on a Talos is a bit negligible, but a Haemy would synergize very well with some T4 Kabalites on an Objective. A Succubi's reroll would benefit Incubi greatly, and the Archon...well I'll get back to you on that.

The long and the short of it is I don't see why we should be dividing when every other faction benefits from being a whole.

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 22:19

@TheBaconPope wrote:
I'm personally of the persuasion that DE need to be less fractured, not more.

When you get down to it, I don't think that DE have the model range to divide themselves up into distinct factions. Like it or not, the Ravager is a staple of anti-tank, despite it being a Kabal only unit. Many a Coven has taken a Jet fighter. And I'd rather like to avoid spending $140 on books just so I can keep the Kabal of the Crimson Lotus with their signature Jetbikes, Arch Dracon Iredaque with her escort of Pain Engines, and Archon Kaestra Fraemarr's ravenous pack of Khymera known simply as "The Hounds."

I digress. Truly, I think the failings of our HQs also stem a lot around being limited to their various sub-factions, where, realistically, only a few units would benefit. The difference between T6 and T7 on a Talos is a bit negligible, but a Haemy would synergize very well with some T4 Kabalites on an Objective. A Succubi's reroll would benefit Incubi greatly, and the Archon...well I'll get back to you on that.

The long and the short of it is I don't see why we should be dividing when every other faction benefits from being a whole.

I agree that AS IS, the army should not be split up.
I want it to be more fleshed out. A bit more depth to the units. I mean look how many variants they have squeezed out of tactical marines? Imagine if they could do the same thing for Kabalites, or even Wyches?

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 22:36

Quote :
I agree that AS IS, the army should not be split up.
I want it to be more fleshed out. A bit more depth to the units. I mean look how many variants they have squeezed out of tactical marines? Imagine if they could do the same thing for Kabalites, or even Wyches?

Sure, I wouldn't mind more options, weapons, etc. But I'd much rather prefer such things to be in supplements and expansions as opposed to being in their own separate dex. The 7th edition Codex did a lot of things wrong, and the "Day 1 DLC" has always struck a sour chord with me. But the Covens Supplement fleshed out the sub-faction, gave it some frankly awesome lore and artwork, and a nice variety of formations, rules, and a detachment to make Covens a standing army by themselves. But what it didn't do was shoehorn players (well, not explicitly anyway) into buying the book to field their Coven models.

There's plenty of fluff examples of a Succubus with her personal Parasite Engine to keep her beautiful, the second largest Kabal is known for having an affinity for Reavers. All I'm saying is that I don't want those options taken away by splitting the faction.

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 23:01

@TheBaconPope wrote:
Quote :
I agree that AS IS, the army should not be split up.
I want it to be more fleshed out. A bit more depth to the units. I mean look how many variants they have squeezed out of tactical marines? Imagine if they could do the same thing for Kabalites, or even Wyches?

Sure, I wouldn't mind more options, weapons, etc. But I'd much rather prefer such things to be in supplements and expansions as opposed to being in their own separate dex. The 7th edition Codex did a lot of things wrong, and the "Day 1 DLC" has always struck a sour chord with me. But the Covens Supplement fleshed out the sub-faction, gave it some frankly awesome lore and artwork, and a nice variety of formations, rules, and a detachment to make Covens a standing army by themselves. But what it didn't do was shoehorn players (well, not explicitly anyway) into buying the book to field their Coven models.

There's plenty of fluff examples of a Succubus with her personal Parasite Engine to keep her beautiful, the second largest Kabal is known for having an affinity for Reavers. All I'm saying is that I don't want those options taken away by splitting the faction.

Maybe a core DE book with 3 faction supplements?

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 00:01

Good god please don't hope they force us to buy yet even more rules. We already have this "fabulous" line-up to look forward to:

- The core rulebook
- The index for our appropriate armies, and any units not covered in the codex
- The codex itself
- The Chapter Approved supplement

And these, while not purchased, are both necessary AND updated both frequently and randomly:

- The FAQ and Errata for the core rulebook
- The FAQ and Errata for the index
- The FAQ and Errata for the codex
- The FAQ and Errata for the Chapter Approved supplement
- Random extra tidbits they throw out on the community site, such as the Objective Secured rule.

Oh my god, why.

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 03:56

One core book with three supplements to build distinct Kabal or coven or cult forces would be very nice!
But it would be even better if that would be included in the dark Eldar codex.
Or they would do it to give us the option to field different kind of Kabal like with chapters.

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 04:33

Well the 3 Codexs should be 4 actually as mandrakes, incubi and scourges are mercenaries and not part of any kabals, wych cults or covens...

Codex of Kabal got archon, 4 courts, kab war and trueborns, raider and ravagers, and impressive codex of 9 units or 12 if you also include the 2 flyers and the venom, tho i would argue those belongs to the wych cult, based on the models you get with them, when you buy the models.

Then we got the Wych Cult.. 2 HQ options, bloodbrides, beastmaster with 3 different beasts, wyches, Hellions and reavers, the 2 flyers and a venom. 13 units for this Codex, 14 with the raider.

Coven.. 2 HQs, wracks, grotesques, talos and cronos. 6 units... 8 with raider and venom.

Now keep in mind Codex cost what? 30 Euro? So that's 90 Euro to play DE as it is now...
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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 05:59

So many elements of the Dark Eldar are seperate.
Keast Kannegaard puts it well, you'd end up with Codex: Kabals, Cults, Covens, Hellion Gangs, Mandrake.....tribes?, and Incubi Temples.


Plus lets face it, we're Dark Eldar. We'll be lucky to get ONE.
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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 07:05

I don't think DE need 3 codices.

Now, I'd be happy to have some extra rules for Coven-only, Wych-only and Kabal-only armies. Perhaps even some expanded rules for Mandrakes, Scourges and Incubi (even non-Special Character HQs for them).

However, as others have said, I think that what our army really needs is some unity. An Archon is supposed to be leading not just Kabal units but also Wych and Haemonculi units. A Haemonculus should be aiding not just his own creations but also the Archon and the soldiers he's leading to war.

In essence, our HQs (especially Archons and Haemonculi) should be able to support our entire faction - not just a tiny part of it.

It may even be best if their force-multipliers weren't in the form of auras. e.g. an Archon could let you choose a unit at the beginning of the game to get some sort of buff (e.g. 3+ poison on their ranged and melee weapons), which would then apply for the remainder of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 07:05

And in terms of kits, i think your idea would be quite... a disaster.

If (IF) they update, let's say, the Wyches kit to give you the models for Monster Hunters (that's copyrighted, btw ^^), Howling Banshees wannabes, Striking Scorpions wannabes, etc., you'll end up with kits that contain 10 bodies, and 30 sets of weapons/gear. Which means you'll have to pay 40 bucks for 10 wyches.
This was the case for so many Dark Elves units in Fantasy. They wanted to add variety : let's add a sorcerers options to the Dark Riders. Let's add an elite option to the Brides. Etc. Etc. And every single box doubled in price.

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 07:09

@Mppqlmd wrote:
And in terms of kits, i think your idea would be quite... a disaster.

If (IF) they update, let's say, the Wyches kit to give you the models for Monster Hunters (that's copyrighted, btw ^^), Howling Banshees wannabes, Striking Scorpions wannabes, etc., you'll end up with kits that contain 10 bodies, and 30 sets of weapons/gear. Which means you'll have to pay 40 bucks for 10 wyches.
This was the case for so many Dark Elves units in Fantasy. They wanted to add variety : let's add a sorcerers options to the Dark Riders. Let's add an elite option to the Brides. Etc. Etc. And every single box doubled in price.

40 bucks for 10 wyches? That would be a massive price cut over here!

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 07:21

Seriously ? How much are you paying for them ? I paid my boxes 23 euros for 10. And i just checked, Dark Elves multikit for Wyches/Sisters of Slaughter is indeed 45 euros for 10.

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 07:24

$48 AUD for 10 Wyches

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 07:26

$41 for a grotesque. Singular.

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 09:34

What we're likely going to get is what we've seen so far. There will be a few named Kabals, Covens, etc. that get super special buffs much like the Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine chapters and everyone else has some generic stuff to choose from. Eldar will get the same thing for their Craftworlds and the Harlequins for their Masques. To make the Ynnari more fleshed out they're probably going to steal a few for themselves, like the Cult of Strife and Iyanden, much like how Thousand Sons and Death Guard no longer play with Chaos Space Marines. So... yeah.

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 09:42

I predict Dark Eldar Codex will be paired with Harlies. But we shall see...

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 09:48

Quote :
I predict Dark Eldar Codex will be paired with Harlies. But we shall see...

Given their meager unit counts, I'd expect them to share with Ynnari. It'd be nice to have the clowns share our book again though Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 20:46

I sympathize with the idea of 3 separate dexes and thinking of some new models to flesh out the factions sounds like a lot of fun (like an artifically created winged monster as FA for Covens). However, if I could choose I'd just have a main book and a supplement for each major faction.

However, the supplements should provide more than mere formations. Each supplement would introduce several new Kabals/Cults/Covens with better units that cost more. I remember one Wych Cult focuses on killing its victims with different poisons, so all of their Wyches wound on a 4+. Or the Wych book could have a Hellion Gang faction that allows to field Hellion gangs that can field them as troops.


But realistically, we can be lucky to get the new codex anytime soon(ish).

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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 09:40

wishing for extra units and more stuff is something we all would like i think.
realistically the range is gonna stay the same, maybe they'll add some named characters back and/or lord of war unit and thats it. That said i would just like one good book with everything.
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PostSubject: Re: 3-Dex DE?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 13:44

@Barrywise wrote:
I predict Dark Eldar Codex will be paired with Harlies. But we shall see...

This... I would bet on this
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