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 Kabalites good units/worth taking?

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Darkin
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PostSubject: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 12:27

in a lot of competitive lists i see no kabalites in them and after i posted my list, witch contains 4x5 kabalites someone told me to not take too many of em. so are they any good
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 12:34

Okay, this is kinda a strange answer but here it goes.

With Kabalites you are paying for poison. That and a +1 to hit are all that separate them from a 4 point guardsman. And you lose out on said guardsman's grenades.

The problem with Kabalites is therefore the problem with poison. It's pretty bad this edition. Particularly with the horde meta.

Kabalites are our best troops choice. But that is only because our other troops choices are spectacularly bad, at least for the most part (I understand that Wracks are at least somewhat viable).

DE have a HQ tax and a Troops tax at this juncture.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 12:56

You do lose out on grenades, but they are worse then their lasgun if they get orders...

Jeah current meta is either vehicles or hordes and splinter rifles are costed that they are used half the time against better things. But against hordes kabalites are still our cheapest option to deal wounds.

We do hit a lot more often, especially in melee.

Are kabalites great, no there are better things. But they are some of our better awnsers to horde spam, even if they are not very good at it.

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Darkin
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 12:58

what should i take instead of em tho, i feel like my list is kinda incomplete without some light guns? or is that just me
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 12:59

Darkin wrote:
what should i take instead of em tho, i feel like my list is kinda incomplete without some light guns? or is that just me

You are correct. Unfortunately, our light guns are not cost effective.

Maybe Mandrakes?

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 21:35

I've had plenty of success with wyches, people hate on them and I know that they are not gonna charge a unit of cc specialized space Marines and come out unscathed or at all but against just standard troops they have done more for me then kabalites have. I'm also working on a list that uses a weapon that is considered to be good awful but I think could actually be useful against GEQ or Ork hoards. That being the Shredder.
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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 03:05

You could try grotesques, but even wracks are more cost effective against hordes. We're in a very bad place right now. If we're not bottom tier, we're very close to it
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 07:36

Archon_91 wrote:
I've had plenty of success with wyches, people hate on them and I know that they are not gonna charge a unit of cc specialized space Marines and come out unscathed or at all but against just standard troops they have done more for me then kabalites have. I'm also working on a list that uses a weapon that is considered to be good awful but I think could actually be useful against GEQ or Ork hoards. That being the Shredder.

shredder: d3 (2) shots 1.33 hits
2 kabalites 4 shots 2.66 hits 1.33 wounds
2 kabalites is always better since the average number of hits of the shredder is equal to the number of wounds of the kabalites.
The silly thing is the shredder is actually sort of ok against light vehicles (t5 and a 5+ ward save) where it is only 1% worse then a blaster (point for point on trueborn)
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 19:12

To my mind, Kabalites have these issues:

- The new detachment system means we can build armies without taking any troops at all and can instead focus on a more useful slot.

- They used to be a cheap unit to unlock Venoms. As it stands, Venoms aren't worth unlocking. So, rather than having a tax unit unlocking an excellent transport, you've got a tax unit unlocking a transport that is itself a tax. Razz

- The high cost of transports means that if you're using them then you probably want to put something valuable in them.

- They don't really excel at anything. And unlike Marines they don't have the stats or equipment to be good all-rounders either.

They're not awful or anything just kinda meh.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 19:28

Kabalites are excellent themselves. The reason why they are less useful than other infantry is because we have no HQs that can buff them.
For 7 points, i find the tools that Kabalites come with amazing.
If they had, like Necrons, a HQ that gave them +1 to hit and +1 attack in CC, they would be amazing.
If they had, like CW, HQs (or a vehicle equipment) that could buff them with a reroll to hit, they would be amazing.
If they had, like Harlies, a HQ that made them reroll to wound/gave them "Shield from harm", they would be monsters.
If they even had a meager reroll 1's to hit, like everyone in the game, they would be good.

But with +1 to LD, they struggle to shine.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 20:06

Mppqlmd wrote:
Kabalites are excellent themselves. The reason why they are less useful than other infantry is because we have no HQs that can buff them.
For 7 points, i find the tools that Kabalites come with amazing.
If they had, like Necrons, a HQ that gave them +1 to hit and +1 attack in CC, they would be amazing.
If they had, like CW, HQs (or a vehicle equipment) that could buff them with a reroll to hit, they would be amazing.
If they had, like Harlies, a HQ that made them reroll to wound/gave them "Shield from harm", they would be monsters.
If they even had a meager reroll 1's to hit, like everyone in the game, they would be good.

But with +1 to LD, they struggle to shine.

To be fair, I think the buff would have to work inside a vehicle to be useful, but yeah that's a good point.

I miss Splinter Racks. Sad
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 20:12

The Shredder wrote:
I miss Splinter Racks. Sad

The struggle is real.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 01:23

I view Kabalites as one thing..cheap CP fodder. Troupes excluded, pretty much any Eldar Troop choice is catastrophically bad. The difference Kabalites make is that they are sucky, and cheap.

Really, the problem is truly with poison. In a meta that encourages taking swaths of T3 (Poisons eternal enemy), and with most things T5 getting a wounds bump, plus a frankly pitiful aura buff, Kabalites are just kinda "the 105 Point Tax I take to get a Battalion."

Remember a scant few months ago when we were worried sick that Splinter Weapons would be getting a strength value? Laughing

Edit: I don't play Ynnarri, but I guess some footslogging Kabs could make some good Soulburst fodder
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 01:25

TheBaconPope wrote:
I view Kabalites as one thing..cheap CP fodder. Troupes excluded, pretty much any Eldar Troop choice is catastrophically bad. The difference Kabalites make is that they are sucky, and cheap.

Strong Disagree. Guardians win wars.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 11:01

And my 7th edition experience with Kabalites was that they were very useful.

2 things changed : first, they no longer have 3 S4 attacks in the late game in cc, so they are less useful as late game chargers.

Second, poison is less useful (that's only a meta thing, once they nerf the spams it will get more useful), and splinter racks is gone (but can come back).

So to me, the first problem has no real solution, it's just a nerf of the PFP cc buffs (and the charging rules). The second problem is just a matter of time.

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anth55988
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Mon Aug 21 2017, 20:47

Leninade wrote:
You could try grotesques, but even wracks are more cost effective against hordes. We're in a very bad place right now. If we're not bottom tier, we're very close to it

We are in a lot better place then we were in 7th and even 6th. The Dark Eldar can compete now against any list or race. I remember in forums and podcasts back in 7th when people called Dark Eldar a "General's Army." This is not the case anymore I believe. We have very good mobility, with vehicles such as a the ravager (155 pts) and reaper (150 pts) that can put out alot of wounds on multiwound models. The Razorwing jetfighter is much improved from 7th. We do have a lackluster HQ selection and wyches still need some work. Kabalites imho are still a better choice. A unit of 5 with a blaster in a Venom has not failed me yet. Scoring an objective or taking the last few wounds off a big model with the blaster and rifles has always found myself turning to my warriors to do the job.

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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Mon Aug 21 2017, 21:50

But given that there's not really anything else we have access to that can put out the same rate of fire that's BETTER against hordes and that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, are they really THAT bad?

They sit in a vehicle and stay a healthy distance from the enemy's grasp and just shoot consistently until your opponent is forced to deal with their transport first. Other armies have it better and it's a bummer until the Codex comes out but seriously what's better for us right now ? I'm not being facetious I'm up for new things !
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Mon Aug 21 2017, 22:39

lcfr wrote:
what's better for us right now ?

A Ravager?
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Mon Aug 21 2017, 22:49

Wow. You're right! Thanks!
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Mon Aug 21 2017, 22:57

While the superiority of a Ravager compared to Kabs in a matter of killing MEQs (or superior) is not questionable, it's not as good against GEQ, FWEQ, and such.

Some here have had success with a force made entirely of Reapers and Ravagers.
Adding some Mandrakes in it could do for an interesting cocktail.

But, in my eyes, kabalites are still very valid, and will largely benefit from the meta-shift that will come with the (very soon now please, GW, we're all waiting for it) conscript nerf.

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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Kabalites good units/worth taking?   Tue Aug 22 2017, 00:34

The problem for me with Kabs isn't the kabs themselves, it's what you've got to put them in. The old standby of 5xKab w/ Blaster in a Venom is crazy expensive for what you get. If the Venom was either better offensively or cheaper I'd take them, but right now I can't justify that particular setup. My 2x5 Kabs with a Blaster each in a dissie raider has been significantly better, so I'm rolling with one of those and a 1x9 squad with Blaster with the Archon riding along in a Dissie Raider to cover my troops tax.

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