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 Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 09:08

So i was checking out our HQ options and since everyone agrees that our Archons are fairly lackluster right now i was wondering if the Haemonculus is a better alternative even for Kabal lists...
Equipped with a hexrifle and a electro whip he costs 18 points more than an Archon with agonizer and blaster but brings much more to the table. range 36 sniper shots at characters with the chance of mortal wounds is pretty cool and if he gets into melee his whip is TWICE as good as the agoniser... Add to that the fact that he can buff with +1 toughness our raiders and venoms around him and i see little reason not to replace the Archon (although fluff wise i hate it)...
So what do you guys think have you used him in Kabal lists and what are your experiences?
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 09:15

That 2++ is mighty nice at making people angry at you though.

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DevilDoll
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 10:43

TeenageAngst wrote:
That 2++ is mighty nice at making people angry at you though.

Yeah true especially if hes your warlord and they are hunting him for the point but cant kill him
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 10:58

While I agree that he can take quite a beating I usually find he dies just the same if i actually use him for more then an 80 point blaster. People just throw a few orks/assault marines or similar normal guys at him and once his save pops use the multiple wound melee weapon to finish him of in 1 (sometimes 2) turns.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 11:02

2++ on its own is not going to help him for long. He really needs 4 Sslyth with him to become survivable but as they each cost very nearly as much as he does I start to wonder why we would bother?

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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 12:08

The buff to toughness on raiders and venoms will get FAQ hammered if it ever actually becomes a thing. Haemonculus are fleshcrafters. The word artisan has been thrown around but, it seems unfluffly that vehicles would gain from it.

Putting him in a kabal seems pointless, his damage output in the grand scheme isn't really good enough to warrant it and he's not more survivable than an Archon. His buff makes wracks and grotesques better while putting Talos & Cronos back to T7. The Archons 2++ isn't terrible and he's way more fluffy with a kabal.

The crucible of malediction isn't terrible. Situational to be assured. If it was more reliable and a wider range of targets I would be so happy. Still, knocking the last couple wounds off Eldrad or another caster trying to hide behind infantry is satisfying. Remembering to use it the psychic phase it takes practice as in a mono DE list there isn't such a phase. Against a psyker heavy list like grey knights it could a lot of fun.

I think the only time a haemonculus is a must take is a heavy coven list and then you are probably going to want more than two to spread the +1 T around and take more than one haemonculus. The toughness buff synergizes to well with coven units not to stick a haemonculus with another coven unit. Even more so if said haemonculus is the warlord.

Playing around with lists and models I don't have it would be easy to spread 3 haemonculii into two spearhead detachments and a vanguard detachment and make a decent list.

Urien with at least 2 Talos and a Cronos. A haemonculus with 3 dissie ravagers. Another haemonculus with 2 units of grots in raiders also with dissies. Rounding out the vanguard add another unit of grots, mandrakes, or beastmaster and pack. That still leaves wiggle room on a 2k list for a unit or two to be added and pack a punch.

The idea of a big game hunting haemonculus with a hexrifle is great. Crunchwise it's not game breaking but, I've wanted to stick a hexrifle on a haemonculus mini since forever.
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 12:32

You'll get significantly more mileage out of a Blaster Archon than that Hexrifle.

I take my Archon in a unit of 9 kabs with a Blaster, Sybarite with Agonizer. They'll usually go hit up an objective in the midfield or even in the enemy's face. You've got plenty of ablative wounds for your two blasters, and while a dedicated assault unit will wipe the kabs/archon, you can just get out of dodge with the Raider they rolled in on.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 15:36

I'm running a Kabal list as well that has a Haemonculus as an HQ. I have yet to find the right combination but I use him with his personal retinue of Grotesques or Wracks. I found that the Grotesques to work amazingly well against GEQ and are okay vs MEQ as well.

Wracks are a bit weaker, but it feels like they provide a bit more mileage for their points. It will take quite a lot of S4 to bring down T5, 5++ Wracks.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 10:37

The Hexrifle is just awful though. Yeah, the Haemonculus is better in combat, but still nowhere near good enough for me to want to put him there. Razz

To be honest, if I was looking for a non-Archon HQ for Kabal DE, I'd look into Eldar HQs. An Autarch, for example, can take a Reaper Launcher (if you want an HQ running around with what amounts to a Missile Launcher +1). More importantly though, he can take Wings, a Jetbike or a Warp Jump Generator - meaning he frees up precious space in your transports.
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 11:12

Footslogging an Haemonculus in a Kabal army is quite nice, though. T6 Raiders ftw Smile

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 19:04

Mppqlmd wrote:
Footslogging an Haemonculus in a Kabal army is quite nice, though. T6 Raiders ftw Smile

Yeah, I can see the appeal in that.

Not really my thing though.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 19:06

Can you do that? I thought that to embark in a transport, all the embarking unit's faction keywords had to match the transport's exactly. And the Haemy only buffs [Coven] units, so you wouldn't be able to embark [Kabal] units in it.

Or am I misunderstanding something?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 19:20

Jimsolo wrote:
Can you do that?  I thought that to embark in a transport, all the embarking unit's faction keywords had to match the transport's exactly.  And the Haemy only buffs [Coven] units, so you wouldn't be able to embark [Kabal] units in it.  

Or am I misunderstanding something?

As far as I can see, the DE transports only specify 'Drukhari Infantry' - there doesn't appear to be any requirement that the infantry match the <subfaction> of the transport.

Unless the rule you're referring to is elsewhere?
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 03:09

I agree with shredder. RAW that's totally legit.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 03:25

Until the inevitable FAQ, the Haemy remains the only HQ that synergizes with units outside his subfaction, and I think there's a lot more utility in T6 Raiders than T7 Pain Engines.

Also, does anyone know why the Hexrifle costs literally triple what a Sniper Rifle does despite being bog standard and mounted exclusively on melee units?

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 03:30

There've already been 2 faq's. It may get nerfed eventually but until then it's disingenuous for you to present that take with the certainty you have in literally every thread this is brought up in and I'm going to kindly ask you this once to stop.

On topic points: Agreed. A T6 Raider is worlds better than a T7 pain engine, and the venom even gets interesting at T6. Hexrifle: there must be a relatively benign synergy that gw/testers thought would be way better than it actually is.
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 03:41

Quote :
There've already been 2 faq's. It may get nerfed eventually but until then it's disingenuous for you to present that take with the certainty you have in literally every thread this is brought up in and I'm going to kindly ask you this once to stop.

Didn't realize it was getting on people's nerves. My apologies

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 03:55

Thank you I appreciate it, and I apologize if I came across as overly curt. My conflict resolution style is escalate to immolation.

Thought bubble while I'm grabbing the floor. My loadout is Mindphase gauntlet/ECW and stinger pistol. I do a variation on the footslogging haemy thing. I'm playing heavy on Cults to maximize drug investment return, and either stick my succubus in a venom or in a raider with 3 grotesques (mindphase gauntlet and agonizer or ECW and cleaver or fleshgauntlet on the one dude) in either case the Haemy tags along withe the succubus when I need to move them. My wyches tag along in their own raider (2x5 same price squads blast pistol and PGL and either an agonizer on a hekatrix or 1 set of gauntlets). In this approach do you suppose there is a better loadout for my Haemonculus?

Question extracted: If we commit to the purview that there are only a handful of ways to field a haemonculus effectively do those applications differ enough as to change the optimum equipment loadout?

Jargon-less: What's the best loadout for Op's desired approach and my/Mppqlmd's approach respectively?
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 04:19

While not perfect, I think the best way to maximize the effectiveness is with an Electrocorrosive Whip and a Liquifier Gun. With regards to range, the Haemy moves exactly half that of a Raider...which means he'll likely be advancing..a lot. While not the best choice in the vacuum, the Flamer is the only ranged weapon classified as assault..and it automatically hits its target, to boot, meaning that whIle it might not be the best weapon, it'll at least he a weapon he can use. The Whip isn't a necessity, but might provide a deterrent against assault units giving your Raiders the evil eye
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 06:14

TheBaconPope wrote:
Also, does anyone know why the Hexrifle costs literally triple  what a Sniper Rifle does despite being bog standard and mounted exclusively on melee units?

Ouch. Maybe if it wounded on a 3+ it would have some more use.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Sun Aug 20 2017, 09:21

TheBaconPope wrote:
Also, does anyone know why the Hexrifle costs literally triple  what a Sniper Rifle does despite being bog standard and mounted exclusively on melee units?

Probably the same reason why the Corsair Void Sabre is 10pts for a weapon that's identical to a 4pt Power Sword. And can't even be taken on HQs. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Tue Aug 22 2017, 15:12

I actually use both HQs in my list with great success. You can't think of these guys as damage output, because they fail gloriously at that...

I've been keeping my archon cheap with an Agoniser and blast pistol then rushing him at a unit with high strength/low attacks that doesn't have fly. Now that unit is tarpitted and forced to sacrifice it's shooting for a turn to make the archon available. The blast pistol allows him to do damage to vehicles while stuck in combat.

The Haemonculus buffs my vehicles toughness, but usually follows my Wracks around. T6 venoms in most games won't make a difference, but t5 Wracks will. I have also been using Urien when I have the points because of his better invul (that also rerolls against most damage), and higher toughness. He's a t6 HQ with a rerollable 4++, 6+++ from PFP, and could get another 6+++ as your warlord.
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Tue Aug 22 2017, 15:23

I'm amazed at the thought that the most efficient role of our glorious and fearful leader is tarpiting his foes.

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Tue Aug 22 2017, 15:30

That's brilliant. I thought he was just an expensive objective grabber. Tarpitting seems like it might be a legitimate use.
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus instead of Archon in Kabal lists?   Tue Aug 22 2017, 15:32

Mppqlmd wrote:
I'm amazed at the thought that the most efficient role of our glorious and fearful leader is tarpiting his foes.

I'm likewise amazed at how selfless our leaders are, in spite of being cutthroat and backstabbing at all other times.

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