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 When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Mon Apr 02 2018, 19:50

@amishprn86 wrote:
Thats damage after saves, per 1 Ravager shooting

That means with 3 Ravagers shooting under re-roll 1s and wounds, we're killing ~13 Primaris a turn.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Mon Apr 02 2018, 19:53

Yeah, its clear with the re-rolls what the rolls are, i'll be using 2 DL and 1 DC i think with 2 DC RWJF and like 4-5 Blasters and some Blast Pistols, backing up with 2 HWB Scourges.

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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Tue Apr 03 2018, 07:17

Anyone done the calculation for points cost per wound?

Given the discannon is cheaper I think that is a more valid way to gauge which is better in which situation.
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 00:41

Assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) the points for a 3dl ravager are 145 140 and the points for the dis ravager are 130 125

The maths are:
Rhino:
DL 22.04 ppw
Dis 27.55ppw

MEQ
DL 61.71ppw
Dis 27.55 ppw

TEQ
DL 50.49
Dis 17.22 <- holy cow batman!

While the points may change a little as I might have them slightly wrong, against the rhino the DL is 25% better and against the other two targets the dis ravager is 125% better and a whooping 190% better!

Also, since the first post of this thread I have corrected the mathammer sheet so it deals with all of the D3/D6 damage issues. And now it has graphs too!

EDIT: Adjusted as per below


Last edited by LordSplata on Wed Apr 04 2018, 01:53; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 01:39

@LordSplata wrote:
Assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) the points for a 3dl ravager are 145 and the points for the dis ravager are 130

140 for Dark Lance Ravager now and 125 for Dissie Ravager. Also yeah, the dissies are way better, especially when you look at meta lists atm, you don't see heavy vehicle spam except for guard but blasters are so accessible and dissies are good against the mortar blobs for those lists.
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 08:17

@LordSplata wrote:
Assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) the points for a 3dl ravager are 145 140 and the points for the dis ravager are 130 125

The maths are:
Rhino:
DL 22.04 ppw
Dis 27.55ppw

MEQ
DL 61.71ppw
Dis 27.55 ppw

TEQ
DL 50.49
Dis 17.22 <- holy cow batman!

While the points may change a little as I might have them slightly wrong, against the rhino the DL is 25% better and against the other two targets the dis ravager is 125% better and a whooping 190% better!

Also, since the first post of this thread I have corrected the mathammer sheet so it deals with all of the D3/D6 damage issues.  And now it has graphs too!

EDIT: Adjusted as per below

Can you also provide numbers for common targets like the Stormraven (T7, 3+ with -1 to Hit) and T8 2+ AS like the LR?
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 11:26

Sure.  Plus, some added extras.

Storm raven:
DL 4.76 wounds on average, 29.39 ppw. median (50%): 5 wounds, 25%: 2 wounds, 75% 7 wounds
Dis 3.40 wounds on average, 36.73 ppw. median (50%): 4 wounds, 25%: 2 wounds, 75% 4 wounds

Land Raider:
DL 3.97 wounds on average, 35.27 ppw. median (50%): 1 wounds, 25%: 4 wounds, 75% 6 wounds
Dis 3.63 wounds on average, 34.44 ppw. median (50%): 2 wounds, 25%: 4 wounds, 75% 6 wounds

so the DL beats the Dis by 25% against the storm raven, and it is basically a tie between the two against the land raider (dis won by a 2% difference). It is interesting however how consistent the dis is at damage, due to the fixed damage and multiple shots. very dependable.


Based on this data, the DL still definitely has a place, and probably has one even with the blaster nipping at its heals due to the added range.

Edit: the double re-roll aura makes all units without rerolls 36% better.
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 11:33

Im at the point i think all DC are wanted and just take many Blasters.

Im plaining on just taking all DC for the next couple games and like 7-8 Blasters.

3 Ravagers, 3 Raiders, 2 RWJF, 5 Kabal units with 2-3 Archons, all with blasters (well 1 Archon has a Blast pistol)

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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 11:56

DC? Death Company?
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 11:57

Dis Cannons

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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 11:59

Ah! Yes. Because the other dark light is so reddilly availble on the warriors it really frees up whoever can to take dissies.

Mind you. Shedders man. Shredders! They rival blasters now for my warriors. So much choice!
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 12:31

I was wondering if anyone had done the math on shredders (vs other guns, or just keeping splinter weapons)
Using them on warriors or deepstriking scourge could be a very efficient way to 'shred' infantry
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Wed Apr 04 2018, 13:41

I did a little bit in this thread here

Not too much has been done yet mathhammer wise, but I think the opinions are pretty right.
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Thu Apr 05 2018, 08:04

@LordSplata wrote:
I did a little bit in this thread here

Not too much has been done yet mathhammer wise, but I think the opinions are pretty right.

Thank you for the excellent math so far.

What other common targets do you think we'll see out there?
Predators have been really good, Rhinos you already did, some aircraft are T6?
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Thu Apr 05 2018, 08:45

Thats cool, it was easy to calculate, as I just threw the numbers into my excel sheet and it did it for me.

T6 and T7 for these two weapons will have exactly the same results as they don't change the to wound roll.
I like though that there isn't a hard and fast choice. Instead the decision is going to be driven by the rest of the army.
The choices will become clearer if one necessary targets is hard to account for, and hence a disproportionate amount of our army needs to be outfitted for that, then the ravagers will probably have their decisions made for them.
Otherwise (and this is the way I'd love it to be) the choice is purely how you want to run your army!

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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Thu Apr 05 2018, 09:09

@LordSplata wrote:
Thats cool,  it was easy to calculate, as I just threw the numbers into my excel sheet and it did it for me.

T6 and T7 for these two weapons will have exactly the same results as they don't change the to wound roll.
I like though that there isn't a hard and fast choice.  Instead the decision is going to be driven by the rest of the army.
The choices will become clearer if one necessary targets is hard to account for, and hence a disproportionate amount of our army needs to be outfitted for that, then the ravagers will probably have their decisions made for them.
Otherwise (and this is the way I'd love it to be) the choice is purely how you want to run your army!


Do you have a link?
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Thu Apr 05 2018, 09:12

Link

It is stickied in the General Discussion page.
I'll be releasing another new version with all the weapon changes as soon as I get the codex this weekend.
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