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 When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 11:38

@Kantalla wrote:
Splinter weapons are better against infantry types. Disintegrators are a nice versatile option that is effective against both though.
It takes 36 splinter shots to down a Teq. It takes 3.3 dissie shots to down a Teq.
I believe Dissies are better, pointwise, against every infantry that isn't GEQ.


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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 11:40

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Kantalla wrote:
Splinter weapons are better against infantry types. Disintegrators are a nice versatile option that is effective against both though.
It takes 36 splinter shots to down a Teq. It takes 3.3 dissie shots to down a Teq.
I believe Dissies are better, pointwise, against every infantry that isn't GEQ.


Splinter is good against anything with high toughness and meh armour. Big Demons that rely on their invulnerable save, for instance.

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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 11:48

Indeed. And dissies are better against everything else.
I just wanted to point out that dissies aren't the "jack of all trade". They are our best anti infantry weapon. The splinter is niche, the dissie is meta.

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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 11:50

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Indeed. And dissies are better against everything else.
I just wanted to point out that dissies aren't the "jack of all trade". They are our best anti infantry weapon. The splinter is niche, the dissie is meta.

Can we please swap out Splinter Rifles for Disintegrator Rifles? Please?

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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 12:14

Splinter can be economical and has its niches. I did the math which may be relevant to discussion for Dark Eldar Cheat Sheet thread in General Discussion. Here DPNEQ is Daemon Prince of Nurgle and LR is Leman Russ and the number is how many weapons of that type kill 1 model of that type on average.



If you consider, rounding things a little, that 1 squad of Kabalites at rapid fire range kills 1 MEQ on average vs. 1 dissie Ravager kills 3 on average, the poison dudes are cheaper. So even though Dissie is better per-weapon you could argue about whether the economic issues could change the balance.

IIRC unless I typed it in manually, this chart does not have the fix for variable damage since its made with simpler math, so in reality DL and Blasters are a little worse vs W2 targets (here TEQ and PEQ). Traveling so can't check.
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 12:33

And a kabalite squad (killing 1.1 MEQ) cost 35 points (assuming no special weapons)
A dissie ravager (3.3 MEQ) cost 185
You could have 5 squads of kabalites for 1 ravager, although the ravager is better at longer range. It also dies slightly faster, but not significantly. (suffering about 3 wounds versus the 10 tac squad with 2 special weapons versus the 5.5 wounds of the kabalites) Although charging and leaving combat probably increases it's survival again.

Versus tau eldar guard orks etc the kabalites become relatively better and better. And against bikers, primarius TEQ and vehicles the dissie becomes better and better.
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 14:19

The original poster has requested that we confine the discussion to Disintegrators vs Dark Lances, please.
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 18:47

My bad for taking it off topic, sort of. Discussing splinters is semi-relevant because dissies are alternative anti-infantry firepower so if splinters were good dissies would be worse.

Anyway back on topic: we can include the economics by stating a price of a dissie is 185/3 and of a DL is 155/3 by the least expensive platforms.

The question then is when is dark lance more points effective at dealing wounds than dissie?

And the answer is, vs Sv3+,
(1+UnitStep(16-(Y+1))+UnitStep(8-Y)+UnitStep(8-(Y+1))+UnitStep(8-Y*2))*(1+2+min(w,3)+min(w,4)+min(w,5)+min(w,6))/155 > (1+UnitStep(10-(Y+1))+
UnitStep(5-Y)+UnitStep(5-(Y+1))+UnitStep(5-Y*2))*30/185, w>=2, Y>0

Which according to Wolfram Alpha is when
w > 5.10... and toughness is 2.5 to 8 or 10 to 15
w > 2.39... and toughness is 6 to 7 or 10 to 15
w > 3.58... and toughness is 5 to 8 or 10 to 15
w > 4.42... and toughness is 5 to 8 or 10 to 15.

That is. If the target has 3 wounds or more DL is more economical vs toughness 6-7 inclusive or 10-15. If it has 4 wounds or more DL is more economical vs. toughness 5-8 inclusive or 10-15. If it has 5 wounds or more DL is more economical vs toughness 3-8(!) or 10-15 inclusive.

For Sv4+ with the same is
w>5.10811, 5<Y<=8 or 9<Y<=15
3.02703<w<=5.10811, 5<Y<=7 or 9<Y<=15

For Sv2+ no invulns

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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 20:00

If you'd like to expand out to include the SC, carry on of course. It's your show, amigo. Very Happy I misunderstood your earlier request.
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 20:19

No, you thought right. It would be most sensible to just focus on one topic for one tactics thread. A limited discussion of splinter vs dissie can be topical since the main anti-infantry alternative is SC. So ypu could argue for the SC DL combo vs dissies.. Discussion of other armies, codices etc. I ot deeper analysis of splinter itself I think is more appropriate elsewhere.
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Fri Aug 18 2017, 23:42

So I e tried to digest these charts and my basic analysis is that excluding T9 (and luckily I don't know any of those) if you are shooting a vehicle or monster with full wounds it is better to hit them with dark lances as anything over 5 wounds and T5 is point for point more susceptible to them.

at 2 wounds left dissies are better hands down.
And while there is an outlier at t8 darklances are pretty much better to this point.

If I'm shooting at elite infantry who have 1,2or3 wounds dissies are the way.

The 3 wounds thing surprised me. Am I right there it sounds wrong!
And invulnerable saves throw things dissies way massively.
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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 04:07

@Mppqlmd wrote:
It takes 36 splinter shots to down a Teq. It takes 3.3 dissie shots to down a Teq.
I believe Dissies are better, pointwise, against every infantry that isn't GEQ.
The mathhammer for this kind of thing can get fairly messy and fairly quickly.

The basic way I assess the offensive power of units, lets say against a Space Marine, goes like this:

Disintegrator Cannon - 3 shots × 2/3 hits × 2/3 wounds × 5/6 unsaved = 10/9 damage
Cost per firing (most economical is Disintegrator Ravager) = 185/3 = 61.33 points/Disintegrator
Damage per 100 points = 10/9 / 185/3 × 100 = 1.80

Splinters - 1 shots × 2/3 hits × 1/2 wounds × 1/3 unsaved = 1/9 damage
Cost per shots (most economical is Kabalite Warrior) = 3.5 points/shot
Damage per 100 points = 1/9 / 3.5 × 100 = 3.17 (or 1.57 outside 12")

Similar results with Shardcarbine Scourges at 14/3 points per shot = 2.38 damage per 100 points

Against Primaris or Terminators nothing comes close to Disintegrators though.

My main thoughts about the Disintegrator vs Dark Lance against vehicles or monsters are:
* At high wounds remaining Lances are generally better (so multiple Lances on Scourges or Ravagers are great)
* If you can get Doom on a target Disintegrators are better against almost any target
* At low wounds remaining Disintegrators are generally better (so put Disintegrators on Raiders if you are taking Raiders anyway) so you can fire them one at a time at a low wounds target
* You probably need lots of Splinter weapons for dealing with hordes, so the versatility of Disintegrators against infantry is not that big a factor vs the Dark Lance

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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 05:03

@Kantalla wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
It takes 36 splinter shots to down a Teq. It takes 3.3 dissie shots to down a Teq.
I believe Dissies are better, pointwise, against every infantry that isn't GEQ.
The mathhammer for this kind of thing can get fairly messy and fairly quickly.

The basic way I assess the offensive power of units, lets say against a Space Marine, goes like this:

Disintegrator Cannon - 3 shots × 2/3 hits × 2/3 wounds × 5/6 unsaved = 10/9 damage
3 shots or 3 guns? and the damage is always 1 to a MEQ with 1 wound the 2d doesnt matter
Cost per firing (most economical is Disintegrator Ravager) = 185/3 = 61.33 points/Disintegrator
Damage per 100 points = 10/9 / 185/3 × 100 = 1.80

Splinters - 1 shots × 2/3 hits × 1/2 wounds × 1/3 unsaved = 1/9 damage
Cost per shots (most economical is Kabalite Warrior) = 3.5 points/shot
Damage per 100 points = 1/9 / 3.5 × 100 = 3.17 (or 1.57 outside 12")
But what about Rapid firing?

Similar results with Shardcarbine Scourges at 14/3 points per shot = 2.38 damage per 100 points

Against Primaris or Terminators nothing comes close to Disintegrators though.

My main thoughts about the Disintegrator vs Dark Lance against vehicles or monsters are:
* At high wounds remaining Lances are generally better (so multiple Lances on Scourges or Ravagers are great)
* If you can get Doom on a target Disintegrators are better against almost any target
* At low wounds remaining Disintegrators are generally better (so put Disintegrators on Raiders if you are taking Raiders anyway) so you can fire them one at a time at a low wounds target
* You probably need lots of Splinter weapons for dealing with hordes, so the versatility of Disintegrators against infantry is not that big a factor vs the Dark Lance

Also what about Shredders? They are cheaper than Dis cannons and Splinter cannons but better than rifles for sure.

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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 05:27

@amishprn86 wrote:


Also what about Shredders? They are cheaper than Dis cannons and Splinter cannons but better than rifles for sure.

Extremely unreliable due to random shots, low damage, no AP, short range.

bring an extra warrior instead. Cheaper and more useful.

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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 05:42

I worry about derailing the thread here, but briefly:

Disintegrators are calculated above on a per firing basis, so 10/9 damage per firing (3 shots or one gun)

Damage of 1 was applied for the Disintegrator above

Splinters were calculated on a per shot basis, because there are so many ways to buy splinter shots. Rapid fire was included by the cheapest cost of splinter shots being Kabalite Warrior at 3.5 points per shot (i.e. 7 points for 2 shots). So Rapid Fire close range was assumed, and the comparison outside Rapid Fire close range was shown too.

As for Shredders - special weapons are messy because you have to buy the squad as well to get them. But for what it is worth (ignoring the rest of the squad) against MEQ:
Shredder - D3 shots (average 2) × 2/3 hits × 8/9 wounds × 1/3 unsaved = 32/81 unsaved
Cost per firing (Shredder on Kabalite Warrior) = 15 pts/shredder
Damage per 100 points = 32/81 / 15 * 100 = 2.63
So less points efficient against MEQ than Splinter rifles within 12", and no effect outside 12". Shredders are basically not worth taking at all.

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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 05:55

@FuelDrop wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:


Also what about Shredders? They are cheaper than Dis cannons and Splinter cannons but better than rifles for sure.

Extremely unreliable due to random shots, low damage, no AP, short range.

bring an extra warrior instead. Cheaper and more useful.

D3 per 1 and S6? Compare to Splinter rifles thats not low damage and splinter is also no AP, Splinter Rifles also are low range for more shots (12").


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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 06:12

@amishprn86 wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:


Also what about Shredders? They are cheaper than Dis cannons and Splinter cannons but better than rifles for sure.

Extremely unreliable due to random shots, low damage, no AP, short range.

bring an extra warrior instead. Cheaper and more useful.

D3 per 1 and S6? Compare to Splinter rifles thats not low damage and splinter is also no AP, Splinter Rifles also are low range for more shots (12").


Strength and rerolls are the one selling point of the gun, but against soft targets it does not reliably put out enough shots to do much to a horde and against hard targets it bounces off saves and multiple wounds.
The 4 shots that two warriors with Splinter rifles put out at the same range and cheaper price are generally better value, not even factoring in the extra wound and attack in melee.

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PostSubject: Re: When exactly are Dark Lances better than Disintegrators?   Sat Aug 19 2017, 08:16

@LordSplata wrote:
So I e tried to digest these charts and my basic analysis is that excluding T9 (and luckily I don't know any of those) if you are shooting a vehicle or monster with full wounds it is better to hit them with dark lances as anything over 5 wounds and T5 is point for point more susceptible to them.

at 2 wounds left dissies are better hands down.
And while there is an outlier at t8 darklances are pretty much better to this point.

If I'm shooting at elite infantry who have 1,2or3 wounds dissies are the way.

The 3 wounds thing surprised me. Am I right there it sounds wrong!
And invulnerable saves throw things dissies way massively.

Some relevant examples you need to prepare for would be Land Raider (T9 - favors dissies), Imperial Knight (T8 3+ 5++ - favors dissies) and Storm Raven (T7 3+ - favors DL).

I didn't think it was surprising that dissies are favored (or equal) at 3 wounds since the DL will only do (1+2+3+3+3+3)/6 = 2.5 damage avg vs a 3 wound model (because 1/3 of the time you roll lower than 3 for damage).  It is surprising that DL would be more economical vs. a T3 W6 Sv3+ model but it bears out : 2/3*5/6*3.5 = 1.9444... vs. 2/3*3*2/3*2*5/6 = 2.22... and factoring in economics 1.9444... * 3/155 = appx. 0.0376 wounds per point vs 2.22... * 3/185 = appx. 0.0360 wounds per point.

But really, it's easy to get blinded by the beauty of mathhammering. In reality I know of no relevant targets with the characteristic Sv3+, invuln 6+ or none, more than 5 wounds, toughness 3, 4 or 5. Probably some Marines character? But economics at this level is likely to not be relevant unless the opponent's army is made of those chars. to a large extent. since you will spend most of the game shooting at other targets.

E: Sv3+ T6 W3. Dissie: 3*2/3*1/3*2*5/6*3/185 = 0.0180... w per point.. DL: 2/3*2/3*2.5*3/155 = 0.0215... so the economic inequality was correct and dl more efficient for points, if you meant this.

I think it would be really nice to do a map of the main and economic inequalities with toughness on x and wounds on y axis. You would need 3 maps (4+;3+;and 2+). Then you could visually see. But this would require owing Mathematica, so far I've been using the free Wolfram Alpha which can't handle such long queries.
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