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HaeSuse
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PostSubject: Optimistic Archon Request   Mon Aug 14 2017, 07:01

Warp Beasts (khymera).
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Mon Aug 14 2017, 09:05

What about them? Would you like Splintermind to talk about them?

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HaeSuse
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Mon Aug 14 2017, 09:31

Yeah. Thought the title said it all. They do a segment called optimistic Archon. They ask for suggestions on which units to look at in this segment. So my title is "optimistic Archon request" , and the body of the message is the unit I'm suggesting.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Mon Aug 14 2017, 15:45

This or grotesques VA clawed fiends

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HaeSuse
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Mon Aug 14 2017, 20:35

But the segment is for units that aren't that great. I don't think grots really fit. Would still be a good guide, though!
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Mon Aug 14 2017, 21:25

Grots got hit pretty heavy with the new edition. Multi wound causing heavy weapons have a chance of just one shotting them now. Before with Toughness 5 they were in the sweet spot where they'd only get doubled out by S10. Now Toughness 6 seems to be the new bar that's been set, doubling out Lasgun S3. Bonus points if you're Toughness 8. Clawed Fiends are pretty much better than grots now Sad

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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Wed Aug 23 2017, 04:06

I'd love to hear some talk about how to get the <keywords> to hum. As it stands they ruin obsec if you mix and match and without full inclusion your option get really limited.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Wed Aug 23 2017, 16:55

UH I read it as you need to have a <faction> keyword so eldairi or drukhary or ork, or anything is good enough. No need for it to be wych cult A or coven B.
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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Wed Aug 23 2017, 21:39

That's not how ITC is ruling it. The Space Marine and Chaos Space Marine codexes specifically state that you must be all <WhiteScars>, <Ultramarines>, <Alpha Legion>, <World Eaters> etc. For us that means <Coven>, <Kabal>, and <Wych Cult> which is really limiting as you only have one HQ and one troops choice. Yanarri specifically doesn't get it at all.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Wed Aug 23 2017, 22:21

I can understand that ruling if it's for specific things like Legion Traits, Chapter Tactics etc but that's not what the Objective Secured rule says.



Wish I had my copy of the Chaos Codex to see what the rule says on their Objective Secured rule.

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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Wed Aug 23 2017, 22:49

I agree with you count and I wish it were clearer. That is how a TO is ruling it for an event I am playing this weekend. I believe NOVA is using the same interpretation. Here's the direct quote from ITC 8th edition PDF

If your army is Battle-forged, all Troops units in <Faction> Detachments gain the Objective Secured rule, so long as every unit in a detachment has the same faction keyword from the following list: Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Astra Militarum, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Ministorum, Asuryani, Drukhari, Harlequins, Chaos Daemons, Renegades & Heretics, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Necrons, T’au Empire, Orks, <Hive Fleet>, and Genestealer Cults.

I don't know why they use <keyword> when they could just say if they are from the same faction. On closer reading I think you are correct but I'm not the TO for my event. And why single out <Hive Fleet>?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Wed Aug 23 2017, 23:01

By the wording of their own ruling, Ynnari could still have ObjSec (other than a detachment that contains one of the Ynnari Triumvirate) if it consisted solely of Asuryani OR Drukhari OR Harlequins.

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mattblowers
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Wed Aug 23 2017, 23:11

They said no on their podcast, but who knows how it will end. Rules are all over the place right now. I was really hoping with the keywords that all this nonsense would stop.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Thu Aug 24 2017, 00:05

Personally I'd just take a Supreme Command Detachment for my Triumvirate and any odd units I wanted and shove everything else into mono-faction detachments. Each such detachment would be battle-forged and every unit would have the relevant faction keyword. Anyone argues with that they can show me where in their own rules they prohibit it.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Thu Aug 24 2017, 14:31

@mattblowers wrote:

I don't know why they use <keyword> when they could just say if they are from the same faction. On closer reading I think you are correct but I'm not the TO for my event.  And why single out <Hive Fleet>?

Because genestealer cult also has the tyranid keyword, and all tyranids (from the old tyranid codex) can have the <Hive fleet> keyword I think.
They want armies from what before was a single codex I assume.

If they wanted same faction you would still have all ealdari/imperial armies qualify. The problem is that it was not planned before so there is no objective distinction between drukhari and ealdari.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Thu Aug 24 2017, 18:52

Otherwise the imperium could "cheat" again by using the "imperium" keyword, too.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Thu Aug 24 2017, 19:04

GW really needed to think about Factions and Keywords before they unleashed them into 40K. There are several 'layers' of factions and by simply labeling them suitably you then open up a range of options.

There are the 'over-factions', eg Tyranid, Aeldari, Imperium, Chaos etc
Then there are racial or organisational sub-factions, such as Drukhari, Harlequin, Inquisition etc
Then we have group level factions, such as Chapter, Cult, Legion, Dynasty etc

By giving each layer a suitable name and linking abilities to battle-forged armies sharing a given layer name you can create unique and fluffy abilities that get more powerful the more specialised you become in your army selection.

Example:

Imperium units can co-exist in the same army, ie you can have a battle-forged army
Adeptus Astartes detachments have access to specific stratagems, psychic powers, warlord traits etc that are only available to them, not other Imperium units
Ultramarine detachments also gain the Chapter Tactics and any special rules or stratagems that apply only to Ultramarines

In our case:

Aeldari units can be battle-forged
Drukhari detachments gain Drukhari special rules, stratagems etc
Cult of Strife detachments gain special and awesome rules that will be revealed in our amazing codex (or not)

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Tue Aug 29 2017, 09:36

Sorry to totally derail this Keyword/Objective Secured Discussion with a reply to the actual thread, but I'd love to do a segment on Khymerae! I haven't used them yet in this edition but will try and squeeze a few games in with them. the teaching year just started back up so I may have trouble getting in a too many games with them before we record next. I think an episode focused on Wyche Cult and related unit tactics would make for a solid show.

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Optimistic Archon Request   Tue Aug 29 2017, 09:39

Sorry to totally derail this Keyword/Objective Secured Discussion with a reply to the actual thread, but I'd love to do a segment on Khymerae! I haven't used them yet in this edition but will try and squeeze a few games in with them. the teaching year just started back up so I may have trouble getting in a too many games with them before we record next. I think an episode focused on Wyche Cult and related unit tactics would make for a solid show.

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