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Sanore
Hellion
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PostSubject: Wych changes   Sat Aug 12 2017, 09:47

How would you guys feel if they made our wyches more like our Harlequin troupe cousins but adjusted the cost to match? The main differences between our wyches and the troupes are that the models in the troupes can equip their blast pistol equalivant, the fusion pistol, and get up to 3 more attacks than wyches do (depends if you're comparing them against a wych, or a hekatrix). However, the most expensive player in a troupe is triple the cost of a wych with a wych weapon or a little over quadruple a regular wych though. I honestly feel like this would help them a lot in the offensive department but it would definitely push us closer to being more of an elite styled faction over a horde styled one. I personally love the wyches aesthetically, but I must admit that they aren't that good for what they do. I personally think making them stronger offensively is the best course of action to make them competitive, and it fits with the lore since all wyches are supposed to have impeccable skill in martial prowess.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Wych changes   Sat Aug 12 2017, 11:23

Wyches have a few selling points.
They are relatively cheap.
They have a 4++ in melee.
They can potentially hold enemies in combat.
Lategame and with support they have excellent melee skill.

For this they pay several heavy prices. They are one of the least survivable units in the game outside of melee (and easily the frailest in their price bracket), and they have negligible offensive capacity outside of melee, which degrades even further if you buy them Wych weapons.

These problems are not automatically terrible, but they mean hyper-specialization, possibly the most extreme example in the game (as most things that have no ranged attack are far more survivable to shooting, or are cheap enough to be disposable).

The problems start coming in when you look at them and realize that they are not very good at their specialty.

>They lack melee killing power, no-one is scared of S 3 AP 0 attacks unless they are coming in a huge numbers, even with our accuracy. A Wych (ignoring drugs) does the same damage in melee as a lasgun in 12 inches, while also having to deal with overwatch and inviting the enemy to strike back afterwards. And unlike Guardsmen we cannot take a 50 man squad to make weight of fire work to our advantage. Drugs help a little, but any Wych cult themed army will have 4 units with meh drugs for every 2 with good ones.

>They lack any tactical flexibility. They don't get options for dealing with vehicles or big stuff, apart from maybe an agonizer on the squad leader. No grenade options beyond Darklight, no weapon options to help deal with anything big, no way to back up and shoot. While specialization in anti-infantry is not inherently bad, it becomes another price they are paying.

>Their upgrade options are very limited. Realistically, you have Hydra Gauntlets and an Agonizer on the leader. Maybe a blast pistol, but that is a big investment for a squad that guardsmen can shoot off the board if they are out of position for just a moment. While other options are written in the index, they are not even remotely viable at this juncture.

>They are not very fast.
Seriously.
Since they have no way to assault after a vehicle moves, take a look at them vs other assault units available in the game. Many have jump packs or bikes. several have special deployment options. A couple have boosts to advance and charge, usually +3. Raiders are 2" faster than most transports and Wyches are 2" faster than most infantry. That is not really a lot of extra speed, especially when you factor in how frail both of those are compared to the likes of a rhino full of berserkers. They are fast, yes, but they are not exceptionally so. Howling Banshees will get out of a far tougher tank that moves 16" to our 14", move 8" (same as us), then roll charge at +3".

>Their special ability is unreliable.
Winning a rolloff is about a 50% chance. That is flat out not good enough for the only thing preventing us from being shot to pieces, particularly when things like Ultramarine Chapter Tactics are flying around.

So, given all the drawbacks, there are a couple of options.

The first option is to leave Wyches as is but make them substantially cheaper. Maybe 6 points per model. I don't like this option.

The second option is to make them more generalized. Increase their survivability out of combat, something like that. I do not like that option either.

The third option is to embrace their hyper specialized nature and make them disproportionately good at combat for their points, but accept that if they are not in combat they are either useless or dead.

Ways to do this:
1) More attacks. An extra attack base helps make up for their low strength a bit, and helps them fill the niche of horde-breakers. This is a no-brainer, barring a second fight phase like Korne Berserkers.
2) Better AP. All their weapons should be -1 AP base, or they should have an ability that lets them treat AP 0 as AP -1. This enhances their abilities against infantry, and combined with the extra attack will allow them to do considerable damage to GEQ in the fight phase.
3) Better Wych Weapons. The Razorflail and Shardnet/impaler need to be on equal footing with Hydra Gauntlets, which they are not currently.
4) More reliable No Escape. Wyches literally live and die by this roll, they need to be able to pull it off with something more weighted in their favor. A common suggestion is +1 to No Escape per Shardnet in the squad.
5) Always Strikes First. Wyches used to be famous for their insanely high initiative. Initiative is gone from the game, but Wyches still rely on overwhelming offense as their primary defense. They need to strike before Guardsmen.

With these modifications Wyches become good anti-infantry melee options, while retaining their hyper-specialized nature.

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Sanore
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PostSubject: Re: Wych changes   Sat Aug 12 2017, 12:10

I agree with you on all points. In reality they're kinda better than they were last edition in my opinion but its just not enough. I agree dropping their cost is not the right choice because then they start competing with our razorwing flocks as the spammy cc option of choice.

More attacks and better AP are a must in my opinion. I'd add on to you're third way of making them better by also adding in more variety between the three wych weapons. the razorflails and the hydra gauntlets are literally the same thing. One has a reroll to hit which is completely useless if a succubus is nearby, and the other has the infinitely more useful reroll to wound which helps with their laughable strength. I would add that the razorflail should maybe even let us deal mortal wounds on a wound roll of six like the mandrakes can do. The net should absolutely have the bonus you suggested as well. I'd also say let them have access to the archite glaive as an option to give us a high strength/AP weapon that could take on tough/armored units if they had to.

Honestly, another option I'd like to see in the codex would be the removal of the restriction on combat drugs and let us pick whatever we want, or even cutting the number of unique drugs used down to like 3.
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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: Wych changes   Sat Aug 12 2017, 12:35

I'm betting there will be a stratagem in the upcoming codex, giving them an extra drug. This will help them massively.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Wych changes   Sat Aug 12 2017, 13:56

Hen Tai, the tentacle guy wrote:
I'm betting there will be a stratagem in the upcoming codex, giving them an extra drug. This will help them massively.
It'll help one, maybe two squads, once. Other than Ultramarines and horde armies running a Brigade no one has access to that many command points.
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Wych changes   Sat Aug 12 2017, 13:57

FuelDrop wrote:

Ways to do this:
1) More attacks. An extra attack base helps make up for their low strength a bit, and helps them fill the niche of horde-breakers. This is a no-brainer, barring a second fight phase like Korne Berserkers.
2) Better AP. All their weapons should be -1 AP base, or they should have an ability that lets them treat AP 0 as AP -1. This enhances their abilities against infantry, and combined with the extra attack will allow them to do considerable damage to GEQ in the fight phase.
3) Better Wych Weapons. The Razorflail and Shardnet/impaler need to be on equal footing with Hydra Gauntlets, which they are not currently.
4) More reliable No Escape. Wyches literally live and die by this roll, they need to be able to pull it off with something more weighted in their favor. A common suggestion is +1 to No Escape per Shardnet in the squad.
5) Always Strikes First. Wyches used to be famous for their insanely high initiative. Initiative is gone from the game, but Wyches still rely on overwhelming offense as their primary defense. They need to strike before Guardsmen.

With these modifications Wyches become good anti-infantry melee options, while retaining their hyper-specialized nature.

I like a lot of these changes, they'd go a long way to making Wyches viable.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Wych changes   Sat Aug 12 2017, 15:39

Moved to Rules Development.
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: Wych changes   Sun Aug 13 2017, 16:08

What I'd like to see:

1 special weapon per 3 models. Bloodbrides should follow the same formula as out Trueborn - that is 4 special per 5 models.

We have such cool and easily fluffy special weapons.

They Hydra gauntlet is fine as is.

RazorFlail: S = user   AP = -1  Damage = 1  Special: generate d3 extra attacks every time you attack with this weapon

Impaler: S = +1    AP = -2  Damage = 2

Shardnet: A model may forgo it's attacks to use a shardnet. For every model that does so, add 1 to the No Escape Roll.

Finally, change the Dodge rule to: A model with this rule has a 4++ while locked in combat.


Combining the above weapons with the appropriate drugs, wyches can specialize even more. A squad of 9 with razorlails and the +1 att drug is looking at 31 - 37 (28 + 3d3 ) attacks. Anti Horde

Shardnet and Impaler always comes as a combo. The strategy there is fairly straight forward. Charge in and use the nets to hold the opponent - less damage.... then on their turn switch over to the impalers to finish them off. Good to combo with the +1 T drug for a bit more staying power.

Hydra stays the same as now, but has some competition for other weapons. Mixing weapon types will not work as well, except perhaps taking a singe sharnet in each squad.

To me, the lack of viable and available weapons are what is hurting the wyches, combined with dying to pistols by the drove in cc.
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