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merse24
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PostSubject: Understanding the Fight Phase   Fri Aug 11 2017, 21:19

So I want to make sure I have this correct. Let's say for this example, I'm charging a single unit of a SM Tac squad with 2 separate units of Incubi. Also, there are 2 additional SM units 2" away from this tac squad (behind or to the side of)

I declare charges and he overwatches the 1st unit. I roll distance and they make it in. I then roll for the 2nd unit and they make it in as well. Neither of the incubi are within 1" of the other 2 SM units nearby.

I then select 1 unit of incubi to enter the Fight phase. They do their 3" pile in move and then attack and wipe out the tac marine squad. This unit can then perform their Consolidate move and move 3" towards the nearest unit. They end their move within 1" of one of the nearby SM units.

Now this puts my 2nd unit of Incubi NOT within 1" of any enemy units, but since they charged, I can select them to enter the fight phase and they can then perform their 3" pile in move towards one of the nearby SM units. They end up within 1" and can then fight.

It is now the SM player's turn and he can then fight with the unit(s) that I either Piled into or consolidated into.

So in summary, my main area for clarification is this:

If I use a PILE IN move to get within 1" of an enemy, I can fight in the fight phase, but if I use a Consolidate move to get within 1" of an enemy, I cannot fight in the fight phase. Also, assuming that the enemy has not already fought in the fight phase, the units that were EITHER Piled into or Consolidated into can be chosen to fight.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Fri Aug 11 2017, 22:03

Moved to rules forum - Count Adhemar

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Sat Aug 12 2017, 03:32

Good questions. Have you seen Miniwar Gaming's tutorial video #9 for fight phase specifics?

You are only allowed to make attacks against units that you made charges against. So it depends on if you made charges against just unit #1 or the others as well.

Also, when consolidating its towards the nearest enemy model. The part that allows you freedom of movement is that you END your move closer to the nearest enemy model. So if you're 0.99" away but can move 3" you can reasonably move to the other side of the model, as long as you are now 0.98" or closer to that closest model.

Also, to my understanding. After the charge phase is the fight phase. Only units that have enemy model/units within 1" can fight in the fight phase. So I'm not sure how that affects a unit you consolidate into... It is my assumption that if you consolidate into an enemy unit that they can still swing at you.

So quick summary:
-only attack units you charged
-consolidate to nearest model
-any enemy units engaged can swing back

So to remake your scenario.

B___C
__A__
1____2

Units 1 and 2 of Incubi. Units A,B and C of SM units in a triangle. With unit 1 closest to units A and B. Unit 2 is closest to units A and C. Unit 1 charges unit A, Unit 2 charges units A and C. Unit 1 survives overwatch from unit A, makes it into CC. Units 2 survives overwatch from unit C, but is unable to make it within 1" of unit C, they move within 1" of unit A instead, moving as close to C as possible. In the fight phase, unit 1 consolidates 3" and kills unit A(all attacks must be used when a unit is activated). They then consolidate another 3" into unit B, unit B must swing back when able to.

Going back to Unit 2, they made their charge and are thus activated. They consolidate 3" towards the nearest enemy model (supposedly unit C) if they make it within 1" the models that are within 1" or within 1" of a model that is within 1" of an enemy model can then make their attacks on unit C. If unit 2 does not make that extra 3" into unit C their attacks are wasted and are allowed to move another 3" into unit C which can then swing at them.

Any further questions about that or the MWG video? I'll double check later if defending units can swing back if consolidated into.

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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Sun Aug 13 2017, 18:15

Ok, all of that makes sense.  If you charge, then you can only fight units that you declared a charge against.  So here's another question that wasn't specifically covered in the miniwargaming video:

Let's say it's the same set up, except that 1 unit of Incubi are already engaged with a unit of SM.  Looks like this

B_____C
__A1__
______2

Unit 2 charges in to unit A and kills the unit.  From the way I read the rules, unit 1 cannot enter the fight phase sense they are not within 1" of an enemy unit and therefore cannot make a consolidation or pile in move.

Is that correct?
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Sun Aug 13 2017, 20:25

To my understanding after all charges are finished, any units that are within 1" of an enemy model/unit are now "fighting" so, because unit 1 was "fighting" they should be allowed to make a pile-in move when activated and when found that the unit they were supposed to fight has been destroyed, they then must consolidate into the nearest enemy model.

^the nuance which is implied but not stated, is that if you have a model that is close to unit B and a model close to unit C, you can actually consolidate into both units, since it is nearest enemy by a model by model basis.

What I still need to look up, and my apologies on this. I've been on vacation. But I need to figure out, if you consolidate into units B and C, if they are allowed to swing back, since they weren't "fighting" after charges were finished. Did the video state anything about that?

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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Sun Aug 13 2017, 20:56

@Barrywise wrote:


What I still need to look up, and my apologies on this. I've been on vacation. But I need to figure out, if you consolidate into units B and C, if they are allowed to swing back, since they weren't "fighting" after charges were finished. Did the video state anything about that?

That is the part I'm curious about. The BRB states:

"Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.
...
After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each."

To me, the question boils down to this.... a unit is considered eligible to fight if they START the fight phase within 1" of an enemy model OR a unit is eligible if they are within 1" of an enemy model and have not fought yet.

To me, I don't think that in my 2nd example above, unit 1 will not be able to make a pile in move or consolidate move to get into combat and attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Mon Aug 14 2017, 01:10

Hmmm. But they started the fight phase within 1" of an enemy unit right? So they should be eligible.

There is an unspoken phase between charge and fighting in which units become eligible.

Charge
Eligibility
Fight

So yes they are still "eligible" so they can move n stuff, just not attack whatever unit they consolidate into...I think...

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Mon Aug 14 2017, 01:22

I really think an FAQ is needed for this, because I'm thoroughly stumped on this..

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Mon Aug 14 2017, 03:02

You are safe to tie up enemy units without worrying about them swinging back at you, but you can't swing at them unless you specified that you charge them as well and your unit hasn't fought yet.

But yeah, the fight phase is easy to learn, hard to master. I haven't played a game in several months because I've been working but the implications are astounding.

Positioning no longer matters for shooting now that templates are gone, but it's super important for CC now.

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Mon Aug 14 2017, 13:09

There is a nice how to YouTube video:

https://youtu.be/uJJ-KV1BDEQ
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Mon Aug 14 2017, 13:16

^thats the one! Thanks Cpt Metal!

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Tue Aug 15 2017, 10:21

There is no unspoken phase I think. Thus the enemy could swing back at you.
You pick a unit witin 1 inch and it can fight, the only exeption is the units that charged, they always get a chance to fight.
You can select any unit to fight if it is within 1 inch. This is at the moment you/ the enemy picks them thus after you did your consilodation move. You can thus get another unit in combat, but they can fight and you cannot. Since a unit that charged can only make attacks against the targets of their charge (does not matter if they made it into contact with that unit initially).

Step 1 charge
Step 2 A unit that charged gets a fight phase (pile in attacks and consolidate)
step 3 (any more units charged, go back to step 2)
step 4 A unit that has not fought yet and is within 1 inch gets to fight (pile in attacks and consolidate)
step 5 An enemy unit that has not fought yet gets to fight (pile in attacks and consolidate)
step 6 Go back to 4 unless there were no eligable units in both step 4 and step 5
step 7 your fighting phase is over
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Tue Aug 15 2017, 10:41

@|Meavar wrote:
Since a unit that charged can only make attacks against the targets of their charge (does not matter if they made it into contact with that unit initially).

This part isn't true, and is not born out by the rules. I can not find anything in the rules which says this.



[quote="merse24"]
@Barrywise wrote:

"Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.
...
After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each."

To me, the question boils down to this.... a unit is considered eligible to fight if they START the fight phase within 1" of an enemy model OR a unit is eligible if they are within 1" of an enemy model and have not fought yet.

To me, I don't think that in my 2nd example above, unit 1 will not be able to make a pile in move or consolidate move to get into combat and attack.

The rule clearly says, "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase."
ANY UNIT THAT CHARGED is eligible to be chosen, whether they are within 1" or not.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Tue Aug 15 2017, 11:08

For a charge to be successful, you need to end up within 1" of an enemy, although I suppose you could do so initially and then have that enemy unit wiped out in another combat before you fight.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Tue Aug 15 2017, 11:16

@ count adehemar: true, but your enemy might have been destroyed by another charger, you can still fight in that case.

@Squimaster under choose targets, last sentence from first alinea:
"units that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase"

So no charging unit A to kill unit B without overwatch.
But you can charge A consolidate into B and stop them from shooting altough they can fight you, you cannot fight them.

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Tue Aug 15 2017, 11:18

@|Meavar wrote:
@ count adehemar: true, but your enemy might have been destroyed by another charger, you can still fight in that case.

I'm fairly sure that's what I said! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Tue Aug 15 2017, 13:14

I believe Meaver is correct, watch 11:00 and 20:30 on the video that Cpt Metal linked.

And I was totally wrong about the "unspoken phase" between charging and fighting for eligibility. My bad fam.

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Tue Aug 15 2017, 18:11

So in my 2nd example above, can you fight with a unit that was already in combat that had it's enemy destroyed by a charging unit since they were within 1" of an enemy, they are then eligible to pile in 3" into a different unit and fight?

So confused on this part  lol
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Tue Aug 15 2017, 19:56

@merse24 wrote:
So in my 2nd example above, can you fight with a unit that was already in combat that had it's enemy destroyed by a charging unit since they were within 1" of an enemy, they are then eligible to pile in 3" into a different unit and fight?

Upon first reading, yes

Quote :
1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase

You meet the criteria, so we move onto:

Quote :
2. Pile In
You may move each model in the unit up to 3"

BUT, then we come to:

Quote :
Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase

So unless you charged more than one unit, if the unit you charged is destroyed before you fight then I think you're out of luck.

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Tue Aug 15 2017, 22:11

What if unit A is "engaged" in a combat from a previous turn and unit B charges in and wipes the enemy unit. Can unit A then pile into a different unit to fight?
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Tue Aug 15 2017, 22:55

@merse24 wrote:
What if unit A is "engaged" in a combat from a previous turn and unit B charges in and wipes the enemy unit.  Can unit A then pile into a different unit to fight?

We're then back to:

Quote :
1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase

Unit A didn't charge so it could only be chosen to fight if it had models within 1" of an enemy unit when you choose it to fight.

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Wed Aug 16 2017, 00:52

^correct. This is mentioned in the video at 20:30 or 11:00. I forget which...

Here's another question: the rules state that "any unit that charged [...] can be chosen to fight in the fight phase. Does that mean that a unit that failed a charge can still be activated and consolidate?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Wed Aug 16 2017, 06:49

I think we have to assume that a unit that failed a charge did not in fact charge.

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Today at 01:47

If its your turn, units that charged can only allocate attacks on enemy units they declared a charge against. It does not matter where you pile in.



When it comes to 2 units charging unit A (with unit B 2" away) If the first unit destroys unit A, the second unit still gets its pile in because it successfully charged.   (Any unit that charged OR has models within 1" may be selected to fight)  When you are selected to fight, first you pile in, then you swing.

If the second unit charged both Unit A and Unit B, then it can make its attacks after the pile in.  If it only declared a charge against unit A then it cannot allocate attacks to unit B however it can end its move in combat tying up the units.

Keep in mind, the enemy can still attack back with the unit you piled into, although you cannot attack them unless you had declared.

Same thing works for heroic intervention.  If you charge unit A, and do not declare that you are charging the character 2" away, if you end your charge within 3" of the character it can heroic intervention and make attacks on you while, since you did not charge the character, you cannot allocate attacks on the character.

Moral of the story:

If you plan on allocating attacks from a unit that is charging to multiple units, make sure you declare a charge on each unit you plan on attacking with that unit.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Fight Phase   Today at 13:22

Here's another question.

If a group of some 20-30 genestealers are fighting a blob of wyches but have a daisy chain back to their broodlord, couldn't you charge the daisy chain with a different unit and kill enough of them that you'd

1. Break the daisy chain/coherency
2. Kill enough on the charge that they don't get to swing back because they are now out of 1" range.

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