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 Studs and Duds?

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Mon Aug 14 2017, 23:48

Honestly, I don't think I have run a single Disintegrator in my entire career. I use mass poison against infantry, and with my terrible rolling I need every vehicle to pull AV duty with a lance.

My armies are really boring composition wise: Poison/DL. Used to have some haywire in there too, but...

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Tue Aug 15 2017, 15:47

I initially thought Dissies didn't pull their weight for AV but they actually do a pretty decent job at it.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Tue Aug 15 2017, 16:58

Mpplqnd does a good job of breaking down why dissies are so good.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Tue Aug 15 2017, 23:49

Maybe this edition. Back in 5th when I did my model building relying on Dissies for AV would have been suicide.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Wed Aug 16 2017, 07:34

And even here I think it depends a lot on what you are shooting at.
Against t 5 vehicles and bad saves or necrons with rules against multiple wounds. jeah dissies are a lot better.
But there are a crap of vehicles with t6 and 7 and a3+ save
Against a guard/space marines etc you barely see anything else (all t6 and 7 and nearly all a 3+ save)

2 hits 0.66 wounds 0.55 after saves 1.11 damage
lance 0.66 hits 0.44 wounds 0.44 saves 1.55 damage
For me the additional wound for every 2 lances (and cheaper price) means I usually have a bit more lances, with some dissies spread around. The major difference is that other units can have lances (scourges trueborn kabalites) while only vehicles can carry dissies. I would not use just dissies but a few is a good investment. They do deal less damage to most tanks, but they deal a lot more damage to bikers, nobs, terminators etc.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Wed Aug 16 2017, 07:57

Dissies are some of the best all-around weapons we have in the codex. What it really amounts to, is that you're 28% less effective than a Dark Lance against T7, but you're 140% more effective against GEQ, 50% more effective against MEQ, and 48% more effective against TEQ (I didn't even count the Termies Invuln.)

So what you're sacrificing is to be slightly less effective against vehicles, but exponentially more effective against everything else. Seems to be a good deal to me

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Wed Aug 16 2017, 09:42

Which is why I said it depends a little bit.
I rarely need more shooting at infantry etc, poison/incubi are pretty ok at that. But I do often have issues with opening vehicles. I do not have enough heavy weapons in my army, thus the extra 28% will be more usefull to me. If I had 15-20 dark lance/ dissies then it would be different. But with only a handfull of them and more then enough options to deal with troops I prefer the 28% bonus on what I will shoot at 80% of the time to the 50% increase only 20% of the time.
Problem is that I have little trouble wiping foot troops of the board, but I often need more punch against vehicles.
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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Wed Aug 16 2017, 19:29

Let's just be clear here - we're talking about a difference, on T6 and T7 and 3+ save, of 0.4 wounds per gun per round of shooting.

It sounds to me like you just invested too much into anti-infantry stuff if you're constantly wiping infantry off the board while barely hurting vehicles.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Wed Aug 16 2017, 21:38

@Chippen - I felt the same way until I tried it

The math hammer for dark lances tends to assume a 3.5 roll on the damage result (which we all know how averages work unless you have a really large number which is difficult to do with lances then your actual results will be skewed one way or another). Also the math assumes no invul saves which matters on whether or not the lance is better than the dissie (I haven't done the math myself but apparently dissies out perform lances against knights).

Since we are talking about T6-7 3+ vehicles that probably don't have the fly keyword, just use our considerable speed advantage to shut them down with a charge. Nothing funnier than a predator getting charged by a raider, only to have the raider back off the next turn and fire at full BS.

We also have units such as blasterborn and hellions that are pretty effective at killing vehicles (though baconpope is really making me consider not running hellions).

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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Wed Aug 16 2017, 21:54

I think we're on the same side - I'm in the Dissie camp.

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