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 Studs and Duds?

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Glutenfreek
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 15:15

10 wounds with no to hit mods goes away very quickly in this edition.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 15:34

Jeah

I am unsure about the marines (normal or spiky) and necrons
But I know guard, orks and Tau and GSC have pretty usefull HQ
Nid HQ is ok (not great but pretty ok, but the hyve tyrant is not that great and alpha warriors suffer the same problem the succubus has (expensive for boosting units that are not that popular), broodlords are fine) Although their major problem is only having 3 psychic powers and having a lot more nice options with now overpriced smiting options because they can only cast each power once.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 15:35

Interesting...

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Glutenfreek
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 15:37

I'm liking the sound of the clawed fiends. Do I need 6 to make them really good? Or should keep them in units of 2 to minimize casualties from morale
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 15:56

@FuelDrop wrote:
I don't have many indexes, but how many armies get a HQ tax? I know my Craftworlders love them some HQ options, Farseers especially. I haven't given my harlies a good try yet but I cannot see the Shadowseer being a tax.

So can someone more knowledgeable tell me if it's a common thing or just us.

I think we're probably the worst off on the HQ front.

The only other army I hear complaining is AdMech - and that's more an issue of diversity than quality. They have 2 fantastic HQs (Crawl and the Techpriest Dominus), but one of those is a special character and the other is a single-pose model. I think they'd at least appreciate some customisation of the Tech Priest Dominus model (so that, if they're using multiples, they can differentiate and personalise the two).

@Sanore wrote:

I'm in the same boat as you, but I do know that the imperial guard has hqs that are on par with our craftworld cousins in terms of usefulness.

Speaking as an IG player, IG HQs - even the SCs - are somewhat bland (though this is largely par for the course). However, they exceed DE HQs in 2 main areas: cost and functionality. For example, IG Company Commanders are a mere 30pts and can issue 2 Orders per turn. You can kit them out a bit if you want but they're already very effective buffing units.
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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 16:04

I don't really get why there is still so much hate for wyches. They have been performing great in my games. Archon have been working best with the agonizer. Usually he is targeted by high toughness enemies so the huskblade isn't working for me yet.

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Glutenfreek
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 16:11

Probably because kabalites do what they do from range and cost less, but I've never played either so I don't know
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Sanore
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 16:16

@Glutenfreek wrote:
What's a heamy?
a heamy is haemonculus
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 16:23

@Hen Tai, the tentacle guy wrote:
I don't really get why there is still so much hate for wyches.

Speaking personally, they simply offer me nothing that I want or need.

My general philosophy is that melee is harder to pull off than shooting and more risky. Hence, in order for me to consider using it, a melee unit must either be cheaper or stronger than comparable shooting units.

When we compare wyches to warriors, they completely fail at this.
- They're more expensive than warriors.
- Their attacks are worse than the Warrior's guns.
- They're incredibly fragile when out of melee or even when charging into melee.
- Unlike Warriors, they can't take a Blaster, Splinter Cannon, Dark Lance or other useful weapon (oh, but a single wych can have -1AP and reroll 1s to wound with all of her 2 attacks. Weee. Rolling Eyes ).
- Warriors benefit from the new vehicle rules in that they can move a lot further and fire with no penalty, whilst also being protected. Wyches though have to get out before the vehicle even moves if they want to charge.

If they work for you, great. But I just have no reason to take them over basic Warriors.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 20:54

Mine are slightly different but:

HQ
Studs: Succubus, blaster-chon - really good value and plenty of use cases
Ok: Drazzy, Haemy - Both are good but only in limited circumstances
Utter crap: everything else

Elites:
Studs: Blasterborn, incubi (both are way better than before)
Ok: Mandrakes, Grots, beastmasters (I love mandrakes but they don't do enough damage)
Duds: everything else

Troops:
Studs: Warriors (just amazing this edition)
Ok: Wyches (I have found them useful but limited)
Duds: Wracks - sorry to say

Fast Attack:
Studs: Hellions
Ok: Reavers, Beasts, Scourges
Duds: none

Flyers:
Studs: Both of them
Duds: none

Heavy
Studs: Ravager
Ok: Tallos
Duds: Chronos

So given GWs track record, the duds will become amazing in the codex and everything good now will be utter crap.
So welcome to dark eldar do yourself a favor and don't give GW a single penny until you see the dex, I know some folks are saying this is a new GW but we just got the Index and guess what are good stuff previously isn't good now, the former crap is good, just like with every change previous change / codex



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Sanore
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 21:05

Seshiru, why do you have blasterborn so high, but have scourges only ranked as meh. I haven't had much luck with them compared to scourges? Scourges can literally do everything they can do with an innate high movement speed. This in my mind makes them cheaper and better because blasterborns need something to transport them in. So including a venom in their stat line the only thing they beat scourges in is toughness but once the venom dies the scourges are better again. Also how have you been using your Hellions and Reavers. I feel like reavers are good at what they do but they're so cost prohibitive. As for Hellions I've had some success sending them after low armor multi wound things like bikes but nothing that would rank them higher than scourges or beasts. Also how do you feel about the transports and the forgeworld heavies?
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Glutenfreek
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 21:18

Hellions seem like a stomp or get stomped option. At 20 points for T3 W1 and 5+ save. But their ceiling is super high as well
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 21:36

Quote :
But their ceiling is super high as well

Aside from a higher move, drugs, and fly, Hellions pale in comparison to Incubi. Five extra points for vastly better AP more attacks, power armor, with the same strength, and two extra points of leadership, plus the ability to take a transport makes them vastly better.

Hellions will kill 2.96 GEQ and 1.11 MEQ.

Incubi will take down 7.11 GEQ and 4.44 MEQ.

All for one point more a model. I think that speaks for itself about Hellions combat potential.

Edit: To preempt claims that Hellions are better suited to take on two wound models, they will kill 1.11 PEQ and .56 TEQ. Incubi will kill 2.22 PEQ and 1.78 TEQ.
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Glutenfreek
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 22:35

They can also fallback, shoot and charge again to make sure they are hitting first and getting free damage in the shooting phase. Plus the extra movement means you don't have to buy them a boat.
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Glutenfreek
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 22:36

They seem like the kind of unit that's reeeeally difficult to measure in a vacuum. I'm thinking they will synergize well with flocks and other swift melee units. Target saturation
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Glutenfreek
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 22:38

Also, any chance you can explain what peq, geq, meq, and teq mean?
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 22:42

Quote :
They can also fallback, shoot and charge again to make sure they are hitting first and getting free damage in the shooting phase. Plus the extra movement means you don't have to buy them a boat.

Very true, and of course you're getting drugs on top of all of this, which can narrow the gap in offensive power and durability, plus provide some pre-game flexibility.

Really, my problems simply stem from my hesitancy to use harassment units. If you find them useful, fluffy, fun, or just aesthetically pleasing, then by all means don't let me ruin your enjoyment. Very Happy

And of course.

GEQ means Guardsman Equivalent, or a single wound model with Toughness 3 and a 5+ Save.
MEQ means Marine Equivalent, or a single wound model with Toughness 4 and a 3+ Save.
PEQ means Primaris Equivalent, or a 2 wound model with Toughness 4 and a 3+ Save.
TEQ means Terminator Equivalent, or a 2 wound model with Toughness 4 and a 2+ Save.
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Sanore
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 22:43

I know meq means marines and marine equalivant units, teq means the same but with terminators, and geq is the same but with imperial guardsmen. I however have no idea what peq means.

edit: baconpope beat me to it.
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Glutenfreek
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 23:05

Ohhhh that's cool. I'll be using those for sure
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 23:06

@Sanore - the scourges cost quite a bit more and I've found that our transports are amazing this edition, so I consider blasterborn's ability (or need) to use a transport to be more of a plus than a minus (and it gives me a place to stick an HQ which is surprisingly difficult to do this edition).

I don't have an opinion on the forgeworld stuff as I don't own any yet, but if the actual Tantalus rules are as good as the current preview version in the index I will get one.

@BaconPope your not wrong but your also not factoring in the fire power of the hellions and that you are going to get that fire power every turn (since they can just leave combat shoot and go back into combat) or the 2 damage of their weapons (which isn't always useful) or their very high mobility.
Incubi are definitely one of our best units, but hellions can do some things Incubi can't (like bunch up a blob bounce off and take out a character with shooting then charge back into the blob or something else)

Edit: I would also point out that if you are going to math hammer hellions it should be at either +1 str or + 1 A

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 23:22

@FuelDrop wrote:
Avoid: reavers. Haywire. Heat Lances. Shredders. Wyches. Bloodbrides. Hellions. Talos. Succubus. Archon and court.

Mmm...you're right in 4 of them (:
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Fri Aug 11 2017, 23:33

Quote :
@BaconPope your not wrong but your also not factoring in the fire power of the hellions and that you are going to get that fire power every turn

Oh shoot, you're right about the firepower, I also forgot that the Klaivex has a 2+ WS. Let me figure out the adjusted numbers.

Hellions (Shooting and Melee):
GEQ: 2.22+2.96=5.18
MEQ:1.11+1.11=2.22
PEQ:.56+1.11=1.67
TEQ:.28+.56=.84

Incubi(Regular + Klaivex)
GEQ:5.33+2.22=7.55
MEQ:3.33+1.39=4.72
PEQ:1.67+.69=2.36
TEQ:1.33+.56=1.89

Even adjusted, it seems like the Incubi still beat out the Hellions, it did close the margin a bit, however.

Quote :
or the 2 damage of their weapons
Here's where I have to disagree, friend, if you'll look, you'll see I've listed the Hellions as exactly as effective against Primaris as regular Marines. Had the Hellions been calculated with only D1, then they would've only killed .56 PEQ.

Quote :
or their very high mobility.

A very valid point. Mathhammer necessarily exists in a vacuum, as it's hard to quantify the usefulness of the fly keyword. Very Happy

Quote :
hellions can do some things Incubi can't (like bunch up a blob bounce off and take out a character with shooting then charge back into the blob or something else)

I won't contest that Hellions are a mobile unit, (if they survive combat, of course), but keep in mind a unit of five is only dealing 2.22 Damage to your average T4 Character with a 3+ Save(Incubi will deal 4.71) Assuming 5 Wounds, thats three turns of combat, and extended engagements are not the specialty of a unit with identical defensive stats to a Kabalite.

They certainly have versatility and mobility, but without the damage output to deal with the swarms that often surround the character (Something that our entire army...well really most armies are struggling to deal with right now) they usually can't get into combat in with him in the first place.
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Sanore
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Sat Aug 12 2017, 01:50

@seshiru scourges cost only 3 more points per model. Realistically you only ever take either one in squads of five so that's 15 total points if they are equipped with the same equipment.  Granted most people take the dark lance variety of scourges, sidenote all 4 scourges can take dark lances while only 2 true born can do it per squad of 5. With this in consideration the scourges are 150 pts and the blaster born are 115. The venom costs 80 points for a total of 195 for the combo. In my experience people know to take out our transports and I rarely have more than one make it through a full match so I honestly don't give the venom much weight in terms of its resilience (I most commonly run 2 raiders and a tantalus). All in all neither are bad and to each their own but I can not see how scourges are just meh. They are easily the best fast attack we have and fast attack is arguably our best unit category (and the only shooty one).


Last edited by Sanore on Sat Aug 12 2017, 08:57; edited 1 time in total
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Glutenfreek
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Sat Aug 12 2017, 02:14

I agree. The ability to keep your anti tank unit completely safe is worth the extra few points. Each dark lance unit of 5 can put an average of 4.9 wounds on a rhino. 2 units can pretty reliably kill a transport with minimal support.
But if I were the opponent and I saw a venom full of blaster born, they are 100% gone turn 1.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Studs and Duds?   Mon Aug 14 2017, 23:00

@BaconPope - sorry I missed your post on the multi wound, your points are well taken, now if only we could have our HQs ride in the same transports as the Incubi....And they need a model that isn't failcast

@Sanore - I think our play styles must be very different, I run alot of raiders (I didn't care for the venom much before 8th and other than Incubi I don't run them now; blasterborn go in a radier with a Blaster Archon) all with Dissies now, and I'll run ravagers, voidravens, and razorwing jetfighters. So far I haven't had anyone come close to taking out all my vehicles.

So far when I run scourges they just get killed easily right after they shoot the first time, when I've had opponents kill my blasterborn + raider on the first turn it has not worked out well for them. It typically means ignoring dissie ravagers, and dark scythe voidravens that will end up doing more for me.

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