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 Born to raid (Rebuilding the humble Warrior)

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Born to raid (Rebuilding the humble Warrior)   Thu Aug 10 2017, 10:31

Hi all. Been toying with the idea of messing with how Warriors and Trueborn function in the game.

Firstly, let's redo some weapons and add some new ones!

Kabalite blade: Range: Melee. Strength: user AP: 0 Damage 1 Special: Reroll failed hits with this weapon. Points 0
Note: Yes it's a clone of the Aeldari blade, but it gives the Kabal a default melee weapon that doesn't step on the toes of the melee specialists.


Shredder: Range: 18" Type: Assault 3 Strength 6 AP 0 Damage 1 Special: Reroll failed wounds vs infantry, 6's to wound are AP -4. Points: 8
Note: Up the range, give it a reliable RoF so it can actually hurt hordes, and threw on the rending effect to match with all the craftworlder monofiliment weapons.


Snare Grenade: Range 6" Type: Grenade D6 Strength 3 AP 0 Damage 1 Special: Reroll failed wounds vs infantry, -4 AP on wound rolls of 6, target unit cannot fire overwatch next turn if they take a casualty. Points 0
Note: Give these to Wyches as well. Monofiliment grenades that trap rather than kill, perfect for leaving the enemy vulnerable to an assault and capture as slaves.

Darklight Grenade: Range 6" Type: Grenade 1 Strength 6 AP -3 Damage D3. Points 0.
Note: Upgrading Darklight grenades to be our Krak grenades, making them fill the same role as other darklight weapons but with less punch due to not being focused. Adds a bit of tactical flexibility to a squad.

Haywire Grenade: Range 6" Type: Grenade d6 Strength 1 AP 0 Damage 1 Special: Against Vehicles a 4+ deals a mortal wound, or d3 mortal wounds on a 6+ Points: 1/model.
Note: A dedicated vehicle killer, and the first grenade that I think should be an upgrade rather than standard issue. Unlike the pathetic haywire blaster, the d6 shots on the haywire grenade means that an average throw will more likely than not do something, and on an insanely good throw it can cripple a vehicle on its own. More likely it's 1-2 mortal wounds on something the squad might otherwise have a hard time dealing with.

Onto the units!

Kabalite Warriors (5-20):
############ M::WS::BS::S::T::W::A::LD::SV
Kabalite Warrior   7"::3+::3+::3::3::1::1:::7::5+
Kabalite Sybarite  7"::3+::3+::3::3::1::2:::8::5+

Wargear: Splinter Rifle, Snare Grenades, Darklight Grenades.
Upgrades: As Index entry Kabalite Warriors (Page 49), with addition of Haywire Grenades for all squad members.

7 points/model.

Note: Throw in some grenades for versatility, and these guys remain a good mainstay for an army.


Trueborn Warriors (5-10):
############# M::WS::BS::S::T::W::A::LD::SV
Trueborn Warrior  7"::3+::3+::3::3::1::1:::8::5+
Trueborn Sybarite 7"::3+::3+::3::3::1::2:::9::5+
Wargear: Splinter Rifle, Snare Grenades, Darklight Grenades.
Upgrades: As Index entry Kabalite Trueborn (Page 50), with addition of Haywire Grenades for all squad members.

Move to Heavy Support.
Points 9/model.

Note: Our first real change. Trueborn effectively become our answer to havocs, with almost the same statline as basic troops but better options. The leadership boost is due to the innate sense of superiority Trueborn feel over the rabble.

So, on to the new stuff!

Kabalite Raiders (3-10):
############  M::WS::BS::S::T::W::A::LD::SV
Kabalite Raider   7"::3+::3+::3::3::1::2:::8::4+/6++
Kabalite Dracon  7"::3+::3+::3::3::1::3:::8::4+/6++

Wargear: Ghostplate Armour, Shardcarbine, Kabalite Blade, Snare Grenades, Darklight Grenades.
Upgrade Options:
Squad may take Haywire Grenades.
Dracon may switch Kabalite Blade for Power Sword, Venom Blade or Agonizer.
Dracon may take Phantasm Grenade launcher.
Dracon may replace Shardcarbine with Splinter Pistol or Blast Pistol.
For every 5 Kabalite Raiders, one may replace his Shardcarbine with a Blaster or Shredder.

Points: 12/model.
Elites choice.

Note: Our first new Elites choice, veteran raiders who specialize in getting close and unleashing a hail of toxic death, then follow through with an assault to make slaves of anything still standing. The increased short-ranged firepower and heavier armour than Kabalites makes them stand out as a more tight quarters focused elite unit, while the lack of heavy weapons options re-enforces this role.

Trueborn Hunters (3-10):

#############  M::WS::BS::S::T::W::A::LD::SV
Trueborn Hunter   7"::3+::3+::3::3::1::2:::9::4+/6++
Trueborn Dracon   7"::3+::3+::3::3::2::3:::10::4+/6++
Wargear: Ghostplate Armour, Shardcarbine, Kabalite Blade, Snare Grenades, Darklight Grenades.
Upgrade Options:
Squad may take Haywire Grenades.
Any model may switch Kabalite Blade for Power Sword, Venom Blade or Agonizer.
Dracon may take Phantasm Grenade launcher.
Any model may replace Shardcarbine with Splinter Pistol or Blast Pistol.
Any model replace his Shardcarbine with a Blaster or Shredder.

Points: 14/model.
Elites Choice.

Notes: Yeah. This is the death squad for the Kabals. You are paying a lot per guy, twice the cost of a regular warrior, but you get what you pay for with extremely high leadership, Ghostplate/shardcarbine stock, and plenty of options to turn the squad into absolute death machines to deal with whatever happens to be annoying you. This is what happens when you combine the wealth of old money Trueborn with the skills and sadism of veteran raiders.


So, what are our thoughts on this alternative to the current setup? Feel free to critique any part you feel needs a bit of work.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Born to raid (Rebuilding the humble Warrior)   Thu Aug 10 2017, 11:24

Like the shredder,
Like the idea of darklight and haywire grenades (although I would make both of them an upgrade of the unit for 5 points or so) Haywire deals roughly 1 mortal wound, so might have to be slightly more expensive assuming 3.5 shots, 2.3 hits, 1.2 mortal wounds.

Your units I am not a big fan of.
I like the idea that trueborn right now get all the good tools and the better stats. I would say keep kabalites as they were, I think they were fine, possibly give them a 5 point upgrade to have the darklight grenades and skip the melee weapon.

For trueborn I would say keep them mostly as they are in the index right now, but give them the option to have the grenades and ghostplate armour, allow them to have 2 heavy weapons per 5 models and unlimited special weapons (possibly with the option to take a few power swords or similar).
Your raiders/trueborn hunters should be our wyches and bloodbrides.
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PostSubject: Re: Born to raid (Rebuilding the humble Warrior)   Thu Aug 10 2017, 11:33

|Meavar wrote:
Like the shredder,
Like the idea of darklight and haywire grenades (although I would make both of them an upgrade of the unit for 5 points or so) Haywire deals roughly 1 mortal wound, so might have to be slightly more expensive assuming 3.5 shots, 2.3 hits, 1.2 mortal wounds.

Your units I am not a big fan of.
I like the idea that trueborn right now get all the good tools and the better stats. I would say keep kabalites as they were, I think they were fine, possibly give them a 5 point upgrade to have the darklight grenades and skip the melee weapon.

For trueborn I would say keep them mostly as they are in the index right now, but give them the option to have the grenades and ghostplate armour, allow them to have 2 heavy weapons per 5 models and unlimited special weapons (possibly with the option to take a few power swords or similar).  
Your raiders/trueborn hunters should be our wyches and bloodbrides.

Good feedback. Not sure I agree about having Darklight as an upgrade, given that even lowly guardsmen can field Krak for free (I think. Don't have that index, but they used to be able to right?)

Haywire, and possibly Darklight as a flat cost upgrade doesn't seem like an unreasonable approach.

I kinda wanted to create the feel of a weighted meritocracy system. You don't have to be trueborn to reach the top, but it hella helps. I also felt that Trueborn shouldn't be statistically better that warriors apart from leadership, but that veteran versions should be available, hence the separate units. I wanted to keep the veterans ranged focused, but with a bit of a melee edge to make use of the extra attack. I went overboard with the Trueborn Hunters melee options though, you are correct that bloodbrides should be filling that particular niche.

Do you agree with my choice for shardcarbines over splinter rifles for our elite squads?

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PostSubject: Re: Born to raid (Rebuilding the humble Warrior)   Thu Aug 10 2017, 11:51

I do like the idea for shardcarbines. Although it does limit the range a little bit we should eb up in their faces with short ranged weaponry anyway. Why would the rich bastards want to stand at the back where they get less pain.

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PostSubject: Re: Born to raid (Rebuilding the humble Warrior)   Thu Aug 10 2017, 11:53

|Meavar wrote:
I do like the idea for shardcarbines. Although it does limit the range a little bit we should eb up in their faces with short ranged weaponry anyway. Why would the rich bastards want to stand at the back where they get less pain.

Exactly! and while it does drop max range it increases our high rate of fire range, so a fair trade I say.

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PostSubject: Re: Born to raid (Rebuilding the humble Warrior)   Thu Aug 10 2017, 12:20

One question, why do you want the havoc like trueborn then?
To me it just feels like a reason to drop the attack so you can make them cheaper.

I say just make them cheaper. Right now they as a model with those stats is overpriced.
Let's compare it to the wych (which most people say is still quite expensive for her damage output)
You gain 1 ld?? (well not really since the wych hecatrix also has 8 thus the unit has Cool
Ok so you gain and attack (well not really since all wyches get 1 extra attack because of their weapons0
So what do you get? An extra armour save and the option to have some special weapons.
What do you lose:
a 4++ in cc (let's be generous and say equavalent to our bonus armour save???)
extra melee weapons options (which is worse then our special weapons but at least better in line with their abilities)
You lose a point of movement
You lose drugs (which is huge)
So in the end I think that they are more expensive then wyches is crap and the trueborn should be 9 points maximum. Giving them the spinter carbines might make it worth a 10 but even that i am not sure about because without it they are barely worth the 9.
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PostSubject: Re: Born to raid (Rebuilding the humble Warrior)   Thu Aug 10 2017, 12:31

|Meavar wrote:
One question, why do you want the havoc like trueborn then?
To me it just feels like a reason to drop the attack so you can make them cheaper.

While a fair assessment, the reason was that every warrior has learned to fight and survive in Commorragh. While Trueborn likely have access to better formal training, they are somewhat sheltered from the true dangers of the dark city due to their privileged nature. They are considered more valuable than half-born, and as a result are not exposed to the same risks.

Due to this I felt that having them be better fighters merely by dint of being Trueborn seemed out of place. Having them as better fighters than Wyches merely from their birth status doubly so. The points reduction was an afterthought, and in all honesty I prefer a more elite army than a more numerous one and would prefer better but more expensive over worse but cheaper.


Quote :

I say just make them cheaper. Right now they as a model with those stats is overpriced.
Let's compare it to the wych (which most people say is still quite expensive for her damage output)
You gain 1 ld?? (well not really since the wych hecatrix also has 8 thus the unit has Cool
Ok so you gain and attack (well not really since all wyches get 1 extra attack because of their weapons0
So what do you get? An extra armour save and the option to have some special weapons.
What do you lose:
a 4++ in cc (let's be generous and say equavalent to our bonus armour save???)
extra melee weapons options (which is worse then our special weapons but at least better in line with their abilities)
You lose a point of movement
You lose drugs (which is huge)
So in the end I think that they are more expensive then wyches is crap and the trueborn should be 9 points maximum.

I do not fully agree with the premise, as the two units should not be filling the same role (Trueborn are special weapons carriers, not melee specialists), I do agree that either Trueborn should be cheapened (and they should. You're paying 4 points per model more for extra special weapons access. The extra attack is all but meaningless to them since they are ranged combatants), or Wyches should be better (Which they should, they are hyper-specialized and are flat out bad at their specialty when one considers how much they give up for it), or both.

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URIEN
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PostSubject: Re: Born to raid (Rebuilding the humble Warrior)   Thu Aug 10 2017, 13:34

If anything I'd welcome all of those changes XD Yet like the others have said the CC truely belongs to the Wych cults. The idea of shock troop trueborn is great with all that ghostplate, I miss giving it to my Syb's and such. I also miss shardcarbines as well, used to take them on my trueborn over rifles any day.

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