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 Wraithknight vs Using the points else where. (Ynnari)

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TheHostwiththeMost
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PostSubject: Wraithknight vs Using the points else where. (Ynnari)   Sun Aug 06 2017, 14:29

So I have been working on a spirit host army and although I loved my wraithknight in 7th, coming in at 511 points for my preferred loadout (double shuri/sword and board) I cant help but think my points would be better used elsewhere.

Before I get into my replacements, I was wondering if anyone had any experiences running wraithknights in 8th. I figure it still does its main job (which for me has always been "hey look and shoot at the big model on the board). Its hard to quantify a distraction. The way I see it, with a wraithknight on the board, I can more or less assume my opponents high str weapons will be shooting it (leaving my guard and lord more resilient to the s4/s5 fire, and if not the knight gets to do work)

I didnt post this in the list section because its more about theory than the actual list itself, but to give some background, the first 1500 points of my list is roughly Yvrain, Autarch w/wings, 3 squads of kabalites, wraithswords, 2x wraithguard, 2x wraithlord, hemlock.

Now without the knight I could switch the autarch to a farseer on bike and then add a solitare and a squad of 9 shuri windriders.

The farseer's psyk with the soulburst means that is a TON of firepower, although it dies relatively easily to anti horde weapons.

Finally, I just wanted to ask, how big are you guys running games points wise? 2k seems to be small now, or is it just eldar are so overpriced?

I knows its a tough ask, I just wanted another opinion on this. I have been going back and forth in battlescribe for a couple days now. Cant decide which is more optimal.
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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Wraithknight vs Using the points else where. (Ynnari)   Sun Aug 06 2017, 22:19

Unless codex fix it, it's waaay overpriced. At it's point cost, you can easily fit at least 3 Razorwing Jetifghters that do a lot more on the table.

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TheHostwiththeMost
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PostSubject: Re: Wraithknight vs Using the points else where. (Ynnari)   Mon Aug 07 2017, 02:00

@mightydoughnut wrote:
Unless codex fix it, it's waaay overpriced. At it's point cost, you can easily fit at least 3 Razorwing Jetifghters that do a lot more on the table.

Those are literally my next buy. I have too much that isnt painted yet to make new purchases but im getting there.

Razorwing jetfighters were definitely one of our winner from the index.

The points kill me on the wraithknight though. I die a little inside every time I add it to a list.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Wraithknight vs Using the points else where. (Ynnari)   Mon Aug 07 2017, 03:42

The Wraithknight, when it comes down to it, is an inferior Imperial Knight that costs far more than it should. It's fine in casual games, but it'll pretty much be crushed by any other Titan out there

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Wraithknight vs Using the points else where. (Ynnari)   Mon Aug 14 2017, 14:39

I usually run lists with the same mentality as the 3x Screamer star of 5th/6th.

3 Units in your face, giving you panic and making you do poor choices. The wraithknight as an extra threat in that list is fantastic actually. Right now I run it with shadowspecters, hellions and wriathfigthers, and most of my opponents have been surprised at how well it has preformed.

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TheHostwiththeMost
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PostSubject: Re: Wraithknight vs Using the points else where. (Ynnari)   Mon Aug 14 2017, 22:07

What concerns me is the wraithknight against other super heavies. He just doesnt seem like he would stand up to them. With the brackets its even worse.

Not having FnP is HUGE. at 500ish points with a 5+ invuln it just seems lack luster.

Against an army without a superheavy I think it could definitely be a worthy distraction, but anyone able to actually deal with it and we could be out 25% of our list t1.

Odds are your opponent will neuter the wk t1 by bracketing it at a minimum, forcing your 500+ point investment to hit on 4/5's.

It just doesnt make sense that we have brackets on the wk. Our vehicles use spirit stones to control the vehicle even under extreme combat, yet a couple wounds on the wraithknight and suddenly it cant hit people as well. At full wounds the WK looks ok, but 7 wounds in you are hitting on 4's and you dont even get a save against lascannons unless you take the invun shield.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Wraithknight vs Using the points else where. (Ynnari)   Mon Aug 14 2017, 23:08

Let's take a look at the durability of the Wraithknight compared to other Super Heavies. We'll be looking at a Wraithknight with and without a Scattershield, compared to an Imperial Knight, Tau Stormsurge, and Tyranid Hierodule. Durability will be based on three weapons, Bolters, Overcharged Plasma, and Lascannons. All will be assumed to be hitting on a 3+

Wraithknight with Scattershield (487 or 540 Points):
Bolters: 648.00
Plasma: 54.00
Lascannons: 23.14

Wraithknight without Scattershield (502 Points):
Bolters: 648.00
Plasma: 43.20
Lascannons: 18.51

Imperial Knight (389 Points):
Bolters: 648.00
Plasma: 54.00
Lascannons: 23.14

Stormsurge (427 Points):
Bolters: 324.00
Plasma: 54.00
Lascannons: 30.86

Hierodule (440 Points):
Bolters: 594.00
Plasma: 39.60
Lascannons: 16.97

The Wraithknight isn't the worst option out there, I think the real deciding factor is that,
1. You will see a lot more Imperial Knights than Hierodules.
2. Said Imperial Knight pays nearly a hundred points less for identical defensive stats at best.
3. Imperial Knights don't have to fundamentally change loadouts and tactics to get their Invuln.

The last point is probably the dealbreaker for the Wraithknight. You have to pay more for a ranged loadout that significantly lowers your durability, something that other superheavies don't need to worry about. I'm not saying it's bad, per say, but it seems that the roles between the WK and IK have swapped entirely: You pay more for something that can, at best, break even.

The Wraithknight would be worth it, in my opinion, if it had an innate 5++ and the Scattershield either boosted it to a 4++ or gave it a Feel No Pain...along with an appropriate repricing, of course.

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TheHostwiththeMost
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PostSubject: Re: Wraithknight vs Using the points else where. (Ynnari)   Mon Aug 14 2017, 23:36

Ouch, I think its worse than I thought. ~25% more durable for 25% less points knight vs Wraithknight... GW must need to sell the rest of their imperial knights stock...

You are looking at a turn, maybe two before you get bracket'd down to hitting on 4's with your 80-135 point weapons. Especially when your opponent has extra command points to throw at damage rolls from lascannons.

Sadly, unless they add some value to it, looks like mine is staying on the shelf. Such a cool model and lore behind them, its unfortunate. (crap give it a serpent shield or something! lol)

Side note: Wow the stormsurge holds up under heavy arms a lot better than I thought it would. Seems like tau gunlines will still be a thing. Throw that guy in a corner and do work.
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PostSubject: Re: Wraithknight vs Using the points else where. (Ynnari)   Mon Aug 14 2017, 23:44

Quote :
Side note: Wow the stormsurge holds up under heavy arms a lot better than I thought it would. Seems like tau gunlines will still be a thing. Throw that guy in a corner and do work.

Full disclosure, I gave him the upgrade for a 4++ and a 6+++ (still represented in the listed cost, however). It definitely seems competitive, with a lot of options and the offensive output to match.
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