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 Mis-factioned units

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Mis-factioned units   Fri Aug 04 2017, 12:58

Why are Scourges not Coven ? The wing operation has to be done by a Haemonculus, they are thus Haemonculi creations. Why are they not boosted ?

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Fri Aug 04 2017, 13:21

The scourges (like most people in commoragh, deal witht the haemonculus. They are not part of the coven itself like the other coven units.
The razorwing, you have a good point.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Fri Aug 04 2017, 13:22

I realized the Razorwing was, in fact, classified "Wych cult/Kabal" so i removed it from my rant ^^

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Fri Aug 04 2017, 14:03

They got an operation once from the covens, they don't owe them loyalty. Most Archons get their bodies resurrected or faces lifted; they aren't Covens affiliated either. I imagine the Covens are the ones who manufacture the Cults' combat drugs, too.

The wing operation isn't an indicator of covens loyalty, I think, so much as it is another reminder of the web of codependency that binds the DE society together.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Fri Aug 04 2017, 14:12

It's not really about who "owns" the Scourges, it's about the fact that the Haemy buff should work on them, since they are, by all means, haemonculy creations.
But you could argue that the haemy buff should work on every single DE non vehicle model.

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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Fri Aug 04 2017, 17:01

Based on the existing lore they're kinda their own little gang like Incubi, but if Reavers and Hellions get the Wyches Cult faction despite the nuances it wouldn't be a big stretch of the imagination to make Scourges a Coven unit or, really, to have every unit in the Codex have some kind of faction affiliation.

I don't really care though, when is a Haemonculus ever going to be 6" away from my deep striking Scourges ? :p
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Fri Aug 04 2017, 17:04

@lcfr wrote:
Based on the existing  lore they're kinda their own little gang like Incubi, but if Reavers and Hellions get the Wyches Cult faction despite the nuances it wouldn't be a big stretch of the imagination to make Scourges a Coven unit or, really, to have every unit in the Codex have some kind of faction affiliation.

I don't really care though, when is a Haemonculus ever going to be 6" away from my deep striking Scourges ? :p

When you deepstrike a wrack raider with a haemonculus next to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Fri Aug 04 2017, 17:05

When your deepstriking scourges own Dark lances and don't see the point in deep striking painfully far when they could light up tanks from a safe distance while gaining +1T ?

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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Fri Aug 04 2017, 17:36

Yeah, I think the Haemmy buff is more of a leadership thing than anything else (Covens personnel will perform even better with their superiors breathing down their necks). Otherwise, as you say, they'd just give it to everyone.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Fri Aug 04 2017, 18:09

To be frank, it's just because they wouldn't mesh well with a Coven playstyle. Hellions and Reavers, despite being independent organizations in their own right, are part of the Cults because they mesh well with their tactics, very fast, very melee focused, hopped up on a ton of drugs, and incredibly fragile.

Covens don't synergize with Scourges in really any sense of the word. The Haemoculi dwell deep in the bowels of the Dark City, Scourges sour in the clouds above it. Wracks, Pain Engines, and Grots rely on their unflinching toughness to tank shots, Scourges are T3 and count on their armor. A Coven's war party rarely seeks to engage at range, usually wishing to get up close and personal to eviscerate and harvest the enemy, while Scourges detest close combat. Covens more often lend themselves to a shambling horde trudging across the battlefield, Scourges like to soar down from the clouds.

In short, the reason Scourges aren't affiliated with the Covens is less about where they were "born" and more about how they live.

On a secondary point, aren't most Dark Eldar grown by Haemoculi in vats?
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Fri Aug 04 2017, 18:28

Does anyone think there is a realistic chance of Ravagers gaining the Wych Cult keyword? I'd like to run Wyches when the codex drops, but buying a third Ravager is look better and better under the Index.
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Fri Aug 04 2017, 19:54

@Myrvn Whether they do or don't, unless the pure Cult army bonuses are insanely good you're going to want to back them up with ranged anti tank IMO. Even if we get good haywire grenades in the codex I can't see them completely replacing Ravagers. I suppose you could run Razorwings to be on the safe side if you want cult theme and have a budget you must stick to, but the two units have different uses.
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Fri Aug 04 2017, 20:05

@Mppqlmd wrote:
When your deepstriking scourges own Dark lances and don't see the point in deep striking painfully far when they could light up tanks from a safe distance while gaining +1T ?

The point is not to deepstrike them back field, where they are sure to die. It's to depstrike them midfield, on the top of a building, where they won't move during the remaining game. Doing so, they are in a good position to strike, are relatively safe from focus fire, and you can back them up with the remaining of your army that will advance.
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Sat Aug 05 2017, 08:11

It really activates my almonds how they're going to justify us not bringing things like Scourges or Incubi or Mandrakes with a pure Cult/Kabal/Covens list when our codex hits.

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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Sat Aug 05 2017, 09:12

Exactly. This thread kinda is an alarm for that : if they don't change unit affiliation, currently you will not be able to use "Kabal" stratagems if you take Incubi, Scourges or Mandrakes.

So my Haemonculi talking to my Scourges : "Guys, i'm literally the one that crafted those wings for you... so could you stop ruining my plans and stratagems just because you don't identify as Coven units ?"

Having different factions is cool and all, but if it means you have to choice between never to use scourges/incubi/mandrakes, or never to use Kabal/Coven/Cult stratagems, then it's pretty stupid.

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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Sat Aug 05 2017, 15:23

My guess is that our Coven, Cult, or Kabal stratagems won't be actual sub-faction stratagems, they'll just be Drukhari stratagems that have an effect specific to the sub-faction.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Sat Aug 05 2017, 15:36

@Mppqlmd wrote:
So my Haemonculi talking to my Scourges : "Guys, i'm literally the one that crafted those wings for you... so could you stop ruining my plans and stratagems just because you don't identify as Coven units ?"

"It's totally not a phase dad, I don't wanna be coven like you."

Teenagers this millennia...
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TheHostwiththeMost
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Sun Aug 06 2017, 03:01

@Jimsolo wrote:
My guess is that our Coven, Cult, or Kabal stratagems won't be actual sub-faction stratagems, they'll just be Drukhari stratagems that have an effect specific to the sub-faction.

They simplified the rules and made the key words super complex. Its kind of hard to tell, if you dont play the army yourself, what your opponents buffs apply to which units. I spot errors in bat reps all the time (although usually more based on "infantry" related keywords being used on non infantry)

If you applied coven stuff to scourges and told your opponent its because of the reasons in this thread they probably wouldnt argue lol.

I am guessing we are going to see big changes when the codex's drop. Its strange that we have so many key words. I guess they really want us to specialize but not a single one the the keywords has access to enough tools to deal with an army on their own. It just seems off that our buffs are so specific. Such a small model range with 4 distinct keywords and no HQ's that buff "drukhari".

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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Sun Aug 06 2017, 03:32

I get the distinct feeling all Eldar are going to be reworked to go with the Ynnari.

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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Sun Aug 06 2017, 10:14

@TeenageAngst wrote:
It really activates my almonds how they're going to justify us not bringing things like Scourges or Incubi or Mandrakes with a pure Cult/Kabal/Covens list when our codex hits.

except theose units specifically are mercenaries have pretty much always been mercenaries and their entire lore is built around being mercenaries, the incubi are trusted to guard an archon while he sleeps (or whatever it is he does) but remains loyal to his shrine. Scourge are hired as neutral messengers as you can't trust a messenger who belongs to an actual rival house(see bombs in chest) though they aren't really trusted so you give them incentive (poisoning them with something the receiving house has an antidote for)

The same thing applies to Coven, Cult and Kabals in general. When forming a raid you call in your friendliest wych cult offer them some of the booty and any prize fighters for the honor of coming on your raid to supply you with the cc units you lack. Then you summon your haemonculi and offer him the chance to test out some of his new creations and he gets... well HE gets whatever he damn well pleases as he is the one who resurrects your sorry ass when it dies.
Dark Eldar sub factions aren't like individual marine chapters, completely autonomous sub-factions, but more interdependent on each other than anyone is really willing to admit. Yes you can play them as independent factions and they each have options to deal with everything(covens anti tank is lacking but they can do it, same for wyches and shooting) in different ways.

Honestly i wouldnt be surprised if we get a lot of solid 1cp options that buff specific sub factions and the 2-3cp ones affect the entire faction as a whole.
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Mon Aug 07 2017, 11:25

Looking at the teasers for the CSM legions, some of the stratagems they show off there are pretty specific. Like the one just for hellbrutes. It makes me think maybe we can expect some stratagems just for #drukhari + #talos/#monster or #Incubi etc.
The more generic ones in the CSM collection are formatted to affect #black legion #infantry so I don't think we will get too many stratagems affecting only #kabal or #cult unless there is a well founded fluff reason for it.
Like a 1CP stratagem for increasing someones dodge save for a turn would not make sense having army wide effect.

Personally I like that the scourges don't hold any specific allegiance and I think the hellions should be free agents too.
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PostSubject: Re: Mis-factioned units   Mon Aug 07 2017, 12:46

While I like the lore of hellions as free agents, they are sometimes hired for the arena so I do not mind that much. And the succubus buff is nice to have on them.
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