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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Durable Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 03 2017, 20:49

I have been playing Dark Eldar for a loooong time and I have found that with this edition our lack of durability is so much more of a challenge than it used to be. The damage output of so many armies is so high, it's really difficult to see a way to not get blown off the table if you go second. Without null deploy options, you almost have to go first or you get crippled. And it's tough to go first with DE MSU.

Ultramarines with Robbie are so devastating... Deep striking plasma Scions... 3-4 knight lists... Massed artillery... Three storm chickens... Smite spam... Perhaps it's my meta (all of these examples exist in my meta), but it still seems tough for a DE Pimp these days.

Last night, to counter the massed fire power of some armies, I took a coven list with 6 talos (2 squads), a big squad of grots, two haemonculi (for the tough buff) and three units of wracks. I took two razorwing jets for the lances. This mass of T5-7 was really good. I am planning to replace the fliers with ravagers for more anti tank. Has anyone been able to build any sort of durability into their lists? How have people been able to counter going second?

Thoughts? RB
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lament.config
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 03 2017, 21:11

I finally built a list with two units of grotesques in it and haven't tried it yet. How did yours fair?
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 03 2017, 21:27

I tend to end up going second a lot in my meta, there isn't smite spam really but there are a lot of mech guard and SM players here... I find that really the best way to deal with that is LOS blocking terrain ... I haven't been tabled at all and, ironically, the closest I came to being tabled was using a coven army ... in terms of survivability I think it must be your local meta cause I find my stuff to be far more survivable then 5th-7th ed. Another thing I tend to do is run scourge and Mandrake's cause of their ds ability ... While they count as a drop they aren't immediately targetable and can be set up where you need them and when you need them. So at least some of your fire power isn't at risk of being blown off the board first turn.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 03 2017, 21:32

My survivability (especially my vehicles) has been much higher in this edition. FNP against everything, no doubling out: it's been pretty sweet.

That said, for Covens its even better. Wracks are just hoss for the cost. I don't think I could ask for more from them. Grots aren't much more durable than they were last edition, but they're still pretty solid. Haven't got to field any of our MCs yet.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 03 2017, 21:52

I think it's less an issue of our durability and more an issue with our lack of reserves and offensive output. Dark Lance's are back, sure, but it still seems like GW has given us the glass, but still insufficient levels of cannon.

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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 03 2017, 23:30

@lament~ I lost. It was close. I have some refining of my list to do. I am going to drop the razorwing jets in favor of ravagers. I also poorly placed by Haemonculi and they got killed resulting in a general diminishing of my entire army.

@thebaconpope~ I agree. I am having trouble seeing the DE's offensive capabilities. I think, just like always, DE players have to work to trick out their lists!
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Thu Aug 03 2017, 23:31

We are much more durable.
Sure, the game has turned into a massive first turn slaughter due to lack of reserves, and we suffer from it too, but it's not just us. With enough lances you can kill 2-3 tanks in a single turn. The game tends to get messier at first turn instead of turn 2-3, that's all.
We are extremely durable, and invulnerable 5+ on everything is pretty huge.

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Chippen
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 02:45

The 5++ on every vehicle is huge. So is the -1 to hit on Venoms. And you did put everything in a transport, right? The T5-7 we can sling around with the Coven units just won't stand up to the S7-8 you see everywhere.

Just gotta deploy right. If you're getting tabled turn 1, your table didn't have enough line of sight blocking terrain.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 11:46

@Rancid blade wrote:
I agree.  I am having trouble seeing the DE's offensive capabilities.  I think, just like always, DE players have to work to trick out their lists!  
I disagree. We are having trouble against infantry (shockingly), but we have one of the finest anti tank ability in the game.
The amount of Dark Lances you can bring in a game is truly shocking. Dissies are awesome as ever. I'm a big fan of Raider configurations (i really don't like venoms) and with that kind of army, you can take 1 DL/100points without even trying, and more if you commit to it. Few armies can do that. Even the Imperium has to spam the heck out of Land Raiders to reach our AT ability.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 12:44

@Jimsolo wrote:
My survivability (especially my vehicles) has been much higher in this edition.  FNP against everything, no doubling out: it's been pretty sweet.

That said, for Covens its even better.  Wracks are just hoss for the cost. I don't think I could ask for more from them. Grots aren't much more durable than they were last edition, but they're still pretty solid. Haven't got to field any of our MCs yet.

If you don't mind me asking, do you run Wracks in transports or do you footslog them?
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 13:28

We are much more durable, and it's pretty easy for us to bring the first turn.
We have some good DS choices, some units that gets -1 to hit+ 5++ save.
And most of all, we can build up 2 units into 1 transport.

It's easy for a DE to deploy just 1/2 or 1/3 of his choices.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 13:33

Keeping a unit in reserve counts as one drop, so it doesn't help getting the first turn.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 13:48

@The Shredder wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
My survivability (especially my vehicles) has been much higher in this edition.  FNP against everything, no doubling out: it's been pretty sweet.

That said, for Covens its even better.  Wracks are just hoss for the cost. I don't think I could ask for more from them. Grots aren't much more durable than they were last edition, but they're still pretty solid. Haven't got to field any of our MCs yet.

If you don't mind me asking, do you run Wracks in transports or do you footslog them?

Transports, definitely.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 13:55

@Jimsolo wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@Jimsolo wrote:
My survivability (especially my vehicles) has been much higher in this edition.  FNP against everything, no doubling out: it's been pretty sweet.

That said, for Covens its even better.  Wracks are just hoss for the cost. I don't think I could ask for more from them. Grots aren't much more durable than they were last edition, but they're still pretty solid. Haven't got to field any of our MCs yet.

If you don't mind me asking, do you run Wracks in transports or do you footslog them?

Transports, definitely.

Do you have Haemonculi with them, or are they elsewhere (or not in use)?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 13:57

I try to keep one generally nearby for the T buff.
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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 17:52

@Chippen~ lots of people talk about adding LOS blockers to the table as a solution. It's not that good of a solution. Stormchix spam, Hemlock spam and artillery (all pretty common) don't care about your LOS blocking. The fliers will just fly over you and nuke you.

@Mppqlmd~ I agree that dark lances are much better. Ravagers or trueborn with lances in a raider are nice. Keeping them alive is the problem I'm facing...

What do people think about trying to minimize drops to gain the first turn? This edition is Gofirsthammer more than any other edition.

RB
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 17:57

Quote :
What do people think about trying to minimize drops to gain the first turn? This edition is Gofirsthammer more than any other edition.

Really, I think our only option is to go transport spam. We're very MSU inherently, with squad sizes rarely ranging above 10.

Raider Spam? Maybe?

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Lord Johan
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 18:10

I personally like to spam Raiders to get lots of units on the table while minimizing drops. I like to put 2x5 squads in them. I will take extra transports just to attempt to go first. It's been working well so far.

Raiders are good anyway. Tough by our standards, bring more lances to the table, fast, expendable, and now help us go first. Which we should, we're screaming in from the webway on a lightning-fast raid after all - I love how they work with the fluff too.

I know some higher-level players disagree and would love to hear differing opinions.
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Lyceus
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 19:41

Propose to your friends to change the rules of going first to a way that is more healthier and fun to play. No enjoyment in building your list around turn one all the time. I am sure that was not intended from the designers anyway but who knows.

We did that in our club.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 19:45

I think that minimizing deployment to go first is a luxury that DE cannot afford in this edition.

The best choices/builds we have available are all pretty unit heavy. Even the armored core gunline I've been kicking around comes in at 13 units in a 2k list, which isn't super likely to be securing first turn that frequently.

I think our best options right now are to build strong lists and then examine how many units they have. If they are likely to go last (and many will), then we should just try to work that into our battle plans.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 19:46

Quote :
We did that in our club.

Can I ask what changes you've made? How effective have they been in reducing first turn slaughter? Would you make any other changes?

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 19:51

I'm a big fan of the Shootout initiative from ancient Necromunda.

Roll a d6 for every unit. The unit subtracts one for each of the following keywords: Vehicle, Tank, Monster. They also add one for each of the following: Fly, Biker, Beast.

Then you proceed to take the first turn in initiative order. When a unit's initiative comes up it can move, shoot, charge, or cast a psychic power. When the first turn ends, you have one big assault phase for any unit that actually got into combat. Then proceed to turn two as normal, with the person who finished deploying first taking the first turn.
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Lyceus
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 20:04

I restarted to play in 8th so no idea of recent versions.

We give the one who deployed first +1 on the roll who starts. I guess it doesnt really change anything but it does not put dark eldar on a disadvantage.

Better rules should be made up though. No other additional rules else then restrictions on list building - participating on local tournaments. Like "Build your list in a way that at least 2 people are having fun while playing."
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 21:04

Mm well it was hinted at today during the FLG podcast that the +1 to initiative roll is the direction GW is gonna go very soon when it comes to going first.
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Durable Dark Eldar   Fri Aug 04 2017, 21:53

i have found that we are MUCH more durable, since a lot of wounding on 2's are now 3's and we are getting saves versus a loooot of stuff we did never get. That said the cost of our transporst have led me to more of a foot sloggers list. It doesnt hurt as much now that all of our stuff moves faster, wych units 8" with the ability of drugs to move 10" etc
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