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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 19:31

What do people think about spamming Reapers? I could get twelve of them in a 2k ITC list. That could be nasty.
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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 19:55

Sounds expensive.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 20:10

Do it! I like them a lot

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 20:16

Seems awesome
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 20:36

@Woozl wrote:
Sounds expensive.

Naah.  I bet I can get the bits to convert a Raider into a Reaper for under $5. In fact, I'll just magnetize the homemade gun and the prow so I can switch them out as necessary.

I mean, they have the oomph to delete vehicles in one shot, a trait that's sorely missing from many options in this edition. They're pretty resilient. And they can throw out 24-144 shots per turn to deal with hordes. (A Doom Farseer out of my excess 200 points probably could help with that, too.)


Last edited by Jimsolo on Wed Aug 02 2017, 20:38; edited 1 time in total
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Keast Kannegaard
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 20:37

Been eyeing a 9 Ravager list (81 shots), which should take out pretty much everything thrown at them, and unlike the Reapers (12-72/24-144 shots), they can move around freely, as its assault weapons.
The -1 to hit when moving (heavy weapon), makes it something i only see as an option, if i already had some Ravagers that could move around as gunboats and then use Reapers as a "turret boats" that max had to move once a game.
Even then, the span of how many shots you get a turn just puts me off compared to Ravagers. I don't like random.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 20:39

Mmm.  I'm not so sure about that.  The 9 Ravagers are nice, but they do much less damage to the vehicles they hit.  That bonus damage is a huge plus in my opinion.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 20:47

81 shots
54 hits
18 wounds against T 8+
15 unsaved wounds against svg 3+
30 wounds

9 ravagers overkill a Baneblade in one turn.
They cost an arm and a leg to field, though.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 20:53

Granted. But 12 Reapers does 36.75 wounds on average, assuming they move. 48.97 if they don't. (That being said, I'm at work trying to do my math on an accounting calculator while looking over one shoulder and pretending to be busy, I might be miscalculating.)
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 21:12

Now against infantry this gets interesting
You can almost get 8 dissie ravagers for the price of 9 reapers, so i'm gonna compare those lay outs.

Against GEQ :
- Immobile reapers shoot 63, hit 42, wound 35, kill 23.33
- Moving reapers shoot 63, hit 31.5, wound 26.25, kill 17.5
- Ravagers shoot 72, hit 48, wound 32, kill 32
Against MEQ :
- Immobile reapers shoot 63, hit 42, wound 28, kill 9.33
- Moving reapers shoot 63, hit 31.5, wound 21, kill  7
- Ravagers shoot 72, hit 48, wound 32, kill 26.6
Against TEQ :
- Immobile reapers shoot 63, hit 42, wound 28, deal 4.6 dmg (2 kills)
- Moving reapers shoot 63, hit 31.5, wound 21, deal 3.5 dmg (1 kill)
- Ravagers shoot 72, hit 48, wound 32, deal 32 dmg, kill 16.

So i would say no, you'd be better off with 8 ravagers than with 9 reapers, because the lack of AP on reapers make them inferior to every kind of infantry (although they are indeed superior against tanks).


Last edited by Mppqlmd on Wed Aug 02 2017, 21:35; edited 1 time in total
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Keast Kannegaard
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 21:24

@Jimsolo wrote:
Granted.  But 12 Reapers does 36.75 wounds on average, assuming they move.  48.97 if they don't. (That being said, I'm at work trying to do my math on an accounting calculator while looking over one shoulder and pretending to be busy, I might be miscalculating.)

Your math seems correct.


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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 21:32

You're assuming the Reapers use the dispersed fire mode against TEQ.  I would assume you'd do the opposite, (and maybe against MEQ too) but maybe that's just me.

Shoot 42, hit 21, wound 17, kill 17 (MEQ on the move)
Shoot 42, hit 21, wound 17, kill 12 (TEQ on the move)

Either way, these numbers seem sufficient.  MEQ or TEQ squads usually aren't gathered in squads of ten or more--against TEQ squads, anything that kills 5 bases is probably deleting the unit anyway.  So the difference between 8 and 12 is minimal. Against MEQ, squad sizes are five to ten, so the difference between 26.6 and 17 is also minimal.

Or do you think I've gone wrong?
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Keast Kannegaard
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 21:43

Also there is the split fire option with ravagers, that you don't have with Reapers.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 21:50

I don't agree with your maths, but i'll do the TEQ and MEQ with the beam option.

TEQ
- moving reapers : 31.5 shots, 15.75 hits, 13.12 wounds of 1d6 dmg, 6.5 unsaved wounds, 5.4 dead TEQs (you have to roll 2+ on the dmg roll).
- immobile reapers : 31.5 shots, 21 hits, 17.5 wounds, 8.75 unsaved wounds, 7.2 dead TEQ
- Ravagers shoot 72, hit 48, wound 32, deal 32 dmg, kill 16

MEQ
- Moving reapers : 31.5 shots, 15.75 hits, 13.12 wounds, 13.12 kills
- immobile reapers : 31.5 shots, 21 hits, 17.5 wounds, 17.5 kills
- Ravagers shoot 72, hit 48, wound 32, kill 26.6

There is a huge difference still. And since you're not going to fire every vehicle at the same target, it's a huge deal. It will take 3-4 ravagers to kill a 10 man TAC squad. It will take 5-3 reapers. For 10 Termies, you need 4-5 ravagers, and 18 (!) immobile reapers.

I don't think reapers are viable against infantry, and not viable at all against TEQ.

But if you mix reapers and ravagers, you could get an awesome list. I think 4 ravagers are enough (that's what you need to kill a 10 TAC/termies squad every turn), and the rest in reapers.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 21:58

How are you getting 31.5 shots?

avg d6=3.5.
3.5x12=42

(Also, at S8, shouldn't 15.75 hits get you 13.07 wounds?)
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 22:03

I did my whole math with 9 reapers vs 8 dissies, so i had to stay consistent.
Dunno why, i read 9 instead of 12 in your first post, so i did the entire comparison with that in mind.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 22:04

The math should, to be consistent with the layout of an ITC list, be between 10 Ravagers and 12 Reapers. (Because Reapers are 35 pts cheaper.) Someone said 9 earlier, so I just assumed that was how many you could fit without checking it. (My bad.)


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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 22:05

I think the great pro of reapers is the versatility: they can face without problems both vehicles and hordes.


Lance ravagers are more reliable against vehicles, but very poor against blobs.

Dissie ravagers are better against infantry, but not great against vehicles.


On top of this 9 reapers are 28 wounds more than 8 ravagers, and they block enemies from advancing, that against some armies can be very handy.

So I don't think they are strictly better than ravagers, but for sure more versatile.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 22:06

And i stand corrected with the 2+ to wound against MEQ and TEQ.

Dissies are better than DL against T5, slightly worse against T6-7 (we're talking about centimals of damage here), and slightly better against T8 (very slightly). So they are definitly not weak against Tanks. The problem with dissies is : the price. But it's worth it IMO.

And i don't think reapers are good against hordes. They fail to kill GEQs and TEQs reliably. They are okayish against MEQs.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 22:10

I'll have to sit down and break down the math more in-depth the next time I get the chance.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 22:16

GEQ :
- 12 immobile reapers, 2d6 shots : 84 shots, 56 hits, 46.6 wounds, 31.11 kills (the lack of AP is painful)
- 12 mobile reapers : 84 shots, 42 hits, 35 wounds, 23.3 kills
- 10 ravagers : 90 shots, 60 hits, 40 wounds, 40 kills
MEQ:
- 12 immobile reapers, 1d6 shots : 42 shots, 28 hits, 23.3 wounds, 23.3 kills (this isn't bad at all)
- 12 mobile reapers : 42 shots, 21 hits, 17.5 wounds, 17.5 kills
- 10 ravagers : 90 shots, 60 hits, 40 wounds, 33.3 kills (that's what i'm talking about)
TEQ :
- 12 immobile reapers : 42 shots, 28 hits, 23.3 wounds, 11.65 unsaved, 9.7 kills
- 12 mobile reapers : 42 shots, 21 hits, 17.5 wounds, 8.75 unsaved, 7.2 kills
- 10 ravagers : 90 shots, 60 hits, 40 wounds, 20 unsaved, 20 kills

Ravager lay out twice as effective as an immobile reaper against MEQ and TEQ. 33% more effective against a GEQ lay out.

I'll do vehicles now.
Please correct me if i did mistakes again Wink


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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 22:28

Against a T5, 4+ vehicle :
- Immobile reapers firing 2d6 (dispersed) : 84 shots, 56 hits, 37.3 wounds, 18.6 dmg
- Mobile reapers firing 2d6 : 84 shots, 42 hits, 28 wounds, 14 dmg
- Immobile reapers firing 1d6 (beam) : 42 shots, 28 hits, 18.6 wounds, 65.33 dmg (aouch)
- Mobile reapers firing 1d6 : 42 shots, 21 hits, 14 wounds, 49 dmg
- Ravagers : 90 shots, 60 hits, 30 wounds, 60 dmg (this is very nice).

Against a T6-T7 vehicle, 3+ save :
- Immobile reapers firing Beam : 42 shots, 28 hits, 18.6 wounds, 65.33 dmg
- Mobile reapers firing beam : 42 shots, 21 hits, 14 wounds, 49 dmg.
- Ravagers : 90 shots, 60 hits, 20 wounds, 16.6 unsaved, 33 wounds (this is the dissie weakness)

Against a T8 vehicle, 2+ save :
- Immobile reapers firing beam : 42 shots, 28 hits, 14 wounds, 11.66 unsaved, 40.83 dmg
- Mobile reapers firing beam : 42 shots, 21 hits, 10.5 wounds, 8.75 unsaved, 30.62 dmg
- Ravagers : 90 shots, 60 hits, 20 wounds, 13.3 unsaved, 26.6 dmg

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 22:38

So here to sum up :
- For GEQs, the ravager has 128% the efficiency of the immobile reaper, and 171% the efficiency of the mobile reaper.
- For MEQs, the ravager has 142% the efficiency of immobile reaper, and 190% the efficiency of mobile reapers.
- For TEQs the ravager has 202% the efficiency of the immobile reaper, and 277% the efficiency of the mobile reaper.


- For T5, 4+ vehicles, the Ravager has 91% the efficiency of the immobile reaper, and 122% the efficiency of the mobile reaper.
- For T6-7, 3+ vehicles, the Ravager has 50% the efficiency of the immobile reaper, and 67% the efficiency of the mobile reaper.
- For T8, 2+ save the Ravager has 65% the efficiency of the immobile reaper, and 86% the efficiency of the mobile one.

Please feel free to point out mistake.
Sorry for multiple posting, i wanted to make it clear and distinct.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 22:44

Yeah, alright.  One Heavy detachment for Ravagers, one for Reapers then.  Ravagers to focus on troops, Reapers to focus on vehicles, but tbh, neither choice is a slouch if they have to pinch hit for the other.

Do Terminators have a 4++ now? I thought it was 5++?
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reaperspam?   Wed Aug 02 2017, 22:49

That's what i had in mind. I might be confusing them with Lychguards (but they are T5, so it's an entirely different story). You probably know better, i don't face termies often.

I think, indeed, that mixing is the way to go. The fact that the reaper has 24" on the AI gun forces you to take ravagers, but reapers are a lot better against (heavy) vehicles.
I would suggest 4 ravagers and 7 reapers. You'd have a bit more than 200 left for a Doom guy Smile

Please inform us of how it goes Smile
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