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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Sun Aug 06 2017, 16:23

Painjunky wrote:
Cerve wrote:
Why I have to shoot at the Taloi, when I can shoot against any other DE unit that will fire me back OR get the position for a next assault on me?

The talos is one of those DE units that will be in position to assault you next turn.

8" + run 1st turn + 8" + assault with re-roll + 1" to be in CC range 2nd turn =20"-35" threat range in 2 turns.  

Yes, it can assault and doing nothing. It is not a beast, not at all.

And when you charge directly forward, is so easy to charge someone you really won't.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Sun Aug 06 2017, 17:15

Dark Eldar's version of a distraction carnifex. Like the Wyches, they're more used to hold up units and apply pressure.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Sun Aug 06 2017, 21:52

6A, hitting on 2s. S6, -1, 2D is pretty damn good actually.

Multicharge two units and stop them shooting is just golden. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Sun Aug 06 2017, 21:59

He's good against 2W models, obviously. But he really fails to deal consistent damage to any numerous infantry (for its points).

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Sun Aug 06 2017, 22:19

Let's break down the offensive output of the Talos vs its closest equivalent: the Clawed Fiend.

A Talos will clock in at 126 Points with Dual Cannons.
Four Clawed Fiends will be 128.

We'll give the Talos the benefit of taking full advantage of the Power From Pain table, and look at GEQ, MEQ (The output for this will be the same against PEQ), and TEQ.

Given the large amount of information here, I'll break my usual style and just list casualties. This will not factor in morale.

Talos (Combined Shooting & Melee):
5.47 Dead GEQ
2.67 Dead MEQ
1.36 Dead TEQ

4 Clawed Fiends:
5.56 Dead GEQ
3.33 Dead MEQ
2.22 Dead TEQ.

Across the board the Clawed Fiend will beat the Talos. Keep in mind that the Talos here has the full benefit of Power from Pain, meaning that this gap would widen even more if the Talos was hitting on 3s. Simply, Clawed Fiends will do better on T1 than the Talos will on T3.

I haven't even factored in Rerolls from the Beastmaster here. The Clawed Fiends also benefit from a little over twice the number of wounds, more models to help mitigate the risks of multi-damage guns, an extra 2" of movement, a larger footprint to better entrap multiple units in combat, all while not taking up a slot that could be filled with Ravagers. I haven't done the math, but I have a suspicion that the Clawed Fiends would be more resistant to AT weaponry as well. I'm sorry, but the only thing the Talos has over the Clawed Fiends is the ability to Reroll charge distance.

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Sanore
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Sun Aug 06 2017, 22:25

Mppqlmd wrote:
He's good against 2W models, obviously. But he really fails to deal consistent damage to any numerous infantry (for its points).
Yea I personally think that our best bet at dealing with the hordes are our other cc units. Wyches and bloodbrides can bring more attacks than a talos while being cheaper if the unit size is 10 or less in the case for wyches (which I can't think of a reason why you would bring a bigger squad of either).
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Sun Aug 06 2017, 23:23

The S6 against T3 units is interesting. Useful against T3 units like guards and light armor like our raiders.
Remember that when fighting guards, there's but a single base so they won't be able to swing back effectively if there's 30 of them. But he'll tear through 10 a full turn, never losing effectiveness until that last wound is lost.

Also, are the Clawed Fiends D2 as well?

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Sun Aug 06 2017, 23:28

I'm pretty sure their weapon is the same ?

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Mon Aug 07 2017, 01:00

Quote :
I'm pretty sure their weapon is the same ?

Exactly the same, save the ability for extra attacks on the Macro-Scalpel.

Anywho, I did the math of the durability of Clawed Fiends vs the Talos. For the sake of clarity, I'll repost the defensive stats of the Talos below.

303 Lasguns
114 Bolters
15 Supercharged Plasma
7 Lascannons

Now let's compare it to what the Clawed Fiends can withstand. Note that this is going off the previous assumption of four Clawed Fiends.

140.45 Lasguns
106.67 Bolters
17.98 Supercharged Plasma Guns
10.26 Lascannons.

This falls in line with my previous hypothesis, where the Clawed Fiends are more resistant to AT fire. It's interesting to note that the Talos finally has an advantage over the beasts with durability towards small arms. The Talos is a whopping 250% more resistant to Lasguns and 7% more resistant to Bolters.

So to summarize, the Talos will absorb a godforsakenly large amount of Lasfire, however, the Clawed Fiends are better suited to tank Heavy Weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Mon Aug 07 2017, 08:04

Thanks for the math BaconPope.

The fiends do have the edge in combat, until they start losing models.
Talos while not a powerful as fiends is at full effect till dead.

The math shows you need dedicated AT (and not a small amount of it too) to down a Talos. A smart enemy knows shooting small arms isn't going to work well.

This is cool as it draws AT fire away from my valuable skimmers. A unit of 2 talos has worked quite well for me so far vs crons and muhreens at 2000pts.

Note im biased when it comes to talos, reavers too. There are more efficient choices but I play them and make them do work cos I love them. Smile

EDIT: The fiends need a beastmaster which should be added to their cost to be fair. They would get to reroll hits too like you said.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Mon Aug 07 2017, 08:33

Noone will ever focus a Talos instead of a Ravager with Lascannons. Especially not Necrons, that can tie that Talos down in a melee with a squad of Warriors that he will never be able to finish, since the R. P. reanimates them faster than he can kill them.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Mon Aug 07 2017, 09:20

If you say so. That's cool.

In my experience my 2 talos are not alone, they have friends following and they all could not be happier in melee, preventing cron units from shooting while whittling them down.

My skimmers/flyers/shooty units focus down his vehicles and destroyer wing with lances/dissies/blasters/splinter. Then focus down the blobs 1 at a time.

Just my exp from a few games vs crons.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Mon Aug 07 2017, 10:00

And in your experience, the necron player prefers to shoot his AT at a couple Taloi instead of shooting down skimmers ?
If 2 Taloi needs "friends following" to accomplish the mere job of tying enemy down (a job that could be done by wyches), then in my book they are not worth 250pts. And if you send 250pts of MC + their escort to tie down Necrons, you are not tarpiting them, they are tarpiting you. Any Necron player can send 20 warriors against your 2 Taloi, and whistle them down all game long without ever losing the squad, because 12 attacks will never be enough to counter the R. P.

The question with Taloi is not "How hard is it to kill ?". It is : "How hard is it to ignore ?". And currently, he is very easy to ignore.

And let's not mention the possibility that your Necron enemy has brought Flyers and Destroyers, that will wreck your entire fleet while jumping away from your poor slow helpless Taloi.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Mon Aug 07 2017, 11:07

Mppqlmd wrote:
And in your experience, the necron player prefers to shoot his AT at a couple Taloi instead of shooting down skimmers ?
If 2 Taloi needs "friends following" to accomplish the mere job of tying enemy down (a job that could be done by wyches), then in my book they are not worth 250pts. And if you send 250pts of MC + their escort to tie down Necrons, you are not tarpiting them, they are tarpiting you. Any Necron player can send 20 warriors against your 2 Taloi, and whistle them down all game long without ever losing the squad, because 12 attacks will never be enough to counter the R. P.

The question with Taloi is not "How hard is it to kill ?". It is : "How hard is it to ignore ?". And currently, he is very easy to ignore.

And let's not mention the possibility that your Necron enemy has brought Flyers and Destroyers, that will wreck your entire fleet while jumping away from your poor slow helpless Taloi.

I've found it's wise to out-range most of cron shooting T1 maybe T2 if possible.

Crons have mostly mid range weapons and are slow.  DE have fast, long range weapons. I use this advantage and LOSB terrain and crons get a few AT shots at my ravagers tops.

If he gets 1st turn he can ignore the talos 1st turn and take his few shots at my skimmers and let my talos move up and advance or shoot.  He will have to deal with my talos T2 and T7 Talos can tank so much S4-6 shots and CC attacks its not even funny.

Flyers and destroyers are not just a possibility as you say but the norm for me as I said earlier.
Turn 1 they will be included in the few units that have range and LOS to my skimmers. They scream target priority and I oblige them with lances/blasters/dissies/splinter/everything and focus them down ASAP as I said before.

By turn 3-4 ive usually tied up and whittled down his blobs with my talos and CC units. My skimmers/flyers/shooty units have neutered his fast units and can now focus down the horde 1 unit at a time. Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Mon Aug 07 2017, 13:51

Using LoSB terrain as an important part of your strategy is unreliable. It's not always available on many tables. In most tournaments I've been to, it's in damn short supply as the terrain is spread thin to cover all the tables.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Mon Aug 07 2017, 21:07

I wouldn't take talos to a tournament. They are not the most points efficient choice as I said above.

Round these parts we've been playing all ground floor doors, windows, holes are boarded up so cannot be fired through as recommended by the frontline gaming boys.

It works quite well.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Mon Aug 07 2017, 22:14

Okay...that doesn't seem to be anywhere close to the way the rules are written. I can't even begin to fathom where they get that from.

Actually, that sounds suspiciously like pushing a house rule that would encourage people to buy their terrain. But surely that's just being paranoid and cynical...

But no, Taloi are not hyper-competitive right now. I'm going to give them a shot sometime this edition in an 'everything counts in large amounts list' and run ten of them or so, but I don't think it's going to be all bubblegum and hookers.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Mon Aug 07 2017, 23:34

It would be sweat if at least they had the Carnifex special rule that allow them to be all deployed in one drop.
But i think they will be awesome sauce again when the WWP stratagel will allow them to Deepstrike turn 1. As long as they are walking, their are not dangerous enough to provide a distraction. But once DS'ed, they will be a huge pain in the arse.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos Mathmmer   Tue Aug 08 2017, 08:17

Jimsolo wrote:
Okay...that doesn't seem to be anywhere close to the way the rules are written.  I can't even begin to fathom where they get that from.  

Actually, that sounds suspiciously like pushing a house rule that would encourage people to buy their terrain.  But surely that's just being paranoid and cynical...

But no, Taloi are not hyper-competitive right now.  I'm going to give them a shot sometime this edition in an 'everything counts in large amounts list' and run ten of them or so, but I don't think it's going to be all bubblegum and hookers.

"Bubblegum and hookers" Laughing

In regards to the FG suggested rule change at first I thought it was dumb but now I totally get it.

A vehicle could be 99% hidden by terrain, like shooting through a small window or hole, but would receive no cover benefit unless it is on or within that terrain piece.
Now that's dumb. Rolling Eyes

You need LOSB terrain in even more 8th. GW wrote a stupid rule and this house rule is trying to compensate. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Its actually a cheap way to use what terrain you have and get more LOSB pieces on the table.
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