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 How should i kit out my Scourges?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 12:10

Got any pics? Would love to see those.

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Morgrim
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 12:14

Yes indeed I would like to see them too!
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 13:05

For me, Dark Lances or HeatLances. Those are the best weapons to bring them on in my opinion.

Haywire are wasted points.
SplinterCannon, is cheaper to bring another scourge.
Blasters are fine but...just D3 damages. I tried them but theme always struggle to get off the target.

DarkLances will hit at 4+, but Str8 1D6 dmg.
HeatLances will hit at 3+, but Str6 1D6 dmg. Pretty the same for me, considering that the T of veichles comes around 5-8. Mostly 6-8. So HL works better on light veichles more than the DL.

But DL has the range. You can drop Scourges into a safer position and just shoot. You can even look for ruins where to drop it, so the DL are the safest choice between the 2 guns.

But the HL has more. First of all, AP-5 which can be good against full tanky targets.
Then, you can DS into 18", you don't care about the middle range because DS rules of 9" and your movement of 14". So you know that when you'll DS, you will never reroll the dmg. It's fine. But where the DL is a long range gun, the HL is the best Character killer gun. If Scourges still alive, they becomes a real threat that your enemy can't ignore at all. Where DL scourge becomes just "4 DL into a bunker" (which still good!), the HL becomes an headhunter unit. So it change DS Scourges from "considerable threat" to "Kill them at all cost". And if you know this army, you know how tow to manage your threats-units for the enemy. How to push him to a choice, how to get side by side, how to strike in the flanks etc. In this scenario, HL Scourges are great. Into shor range, they wil bring out enough dmg to seriously wound a veichle. And if there's any Character in the zone, they will fly easely to him and shoot him down (when it possible).

Oh and into an Ynnari list HL>DL all around.

So for me, if I have to purchase Scourges, I will run DL or HL.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 15:42

@Morgrim wrote:
Yes indeed I would like to see them too!
Linky
It's on a Raider, though. But i plan to do the same with Scourges Smile
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 15:56

@Mppqlmd wrote:
The math is here : even after moving the DL is better than a blaster. The only point of taking blasters is budget.

I know I am nitpicking, but that is only the case if you can make use of the full D6 damage.

They give great offensive power against vehicles, but much of this advantage is negated when you want to kill something that has 3 wounds or less.

Just want to throw that in.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 16:00

@The Strange Dark One wrote:


I know I am nitpicking, but that is only the case if you can make use of the full D6 damage.

They give great offensive power against vehicles, but much of this advantage is negated when you want to kill something that has 3 wounds or less.

Just want to throw that in.

Disagreed. Against a Wound 3 model (or even, to a lesser extent, W2 models), Blasters are a pain. If you roll a 2, you're basically rolling 1 on your next dmg roll.
Blasters have 33% chance of killing a W3 model in one wound. DL have 66% chances of doing so.
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 16:02

Quote :
They give great offensive power against vehicles, but much of this advantage is negated when you want to kill something that has 3 wounds or less.

Just want to throw that in.

Isn't that what dissie cannons are for? Aside from that when facing a three wound model, a DL will have a 67% chance to wipe out that model on its damage roll. The Blaster will have only a 33% chance.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 19:01

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:


I know I am nitpicking, but that is only the case if you can make use of the full D6 damage.

They give great offensive power against vehicles, but much of this advantage is negated when you want to kill something that has 3 wounds or less.

Just want to throw that in.

Disagreed. Against a Wound 3 model (or even, to a lesser extent, W2 models), Blasters are a pain. If you roll a 2, you're basically rolling 1 on your next dmg roll.
Blasters have 33% chance of killing a W3 model in one wound. DL have 66% chances of doing so.

That is correct. I failed to mention that I meant it for the case when you move your Scourges.
In that case Lances will perform a bit worse than Blasters while being considerably more expensive.

I can show you the math, but as I said I am nitpicking.

Edit: I acknowledge that underlying math to proove this point is not demanded.

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Last edited by The Strange Dark One on Fri Aug 04 2017, 01:32; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 23:34

Against W1, agreed, lances are overkill Smile but you're not moving your scourges to fire at a W1 model !
Against W2, maybe. Probably, if you say you did the math.
Against W3, definitly not.

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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 01:03

Yeah i have 3 squads of Scourges, 1 with 4 Blasters, 1 with 4 Haywire Blasters and 1 with 4 Heatlances lol!
I made it so because of earlier heavy weapon moved penalty.
Moved Dark Lance only hit on a 6 lol!

How times change.
Is it cool in friendly games to just say all count as Dark Lances?
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 01:22

Clearly massed shredders are the way to go!

Okay, serious now. Scourges with Darklances highlights a rather large hole in our list: a lack of a proper Havoc equivalent. Dedicated heavy weapons infantry, designed to hide in cover and snipe with lances. Scourges can do that but camping means you are paying a lot for wings you don't use. Keeping them mobile nets you penalties and makes you go "why am I not using Ravagers?"
Heat Lances are too expensive, byt make epic super heavy infantry killers. They suck on toast vs vehicles though due to a measly S 6.
Haywire is dead this edition. It lacks reliability, flexibility, and damage output.

Personally I favor Blasters and use them to hunt heavy infantry and light vehicles, or to finish off foes my heavy weapons have left with a couple of wounds.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 11:38

Why are you not using Ravagers ?
The immunity to Alpha Strike, and 1 more shot.

And, let's be honest, a glorious price on the Scourges box. You can almost get 10 scourges for the price of 1 Ravager.

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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 11:41

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Why are you not using Ravagers ?
The immunity to Alpha Strike, and 1 more shot.

And, let's be honest, a glorious price on the Scourges box. You can almost get 10 scourges for the price of 1 Ravager.

4 shots at 4+ (mobile lance scourges) = 3 shots at 3+ (Ravager)

Immune to Alpha strike is a fair point.

Pricetag is a VERY good point Smile

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 13:23

@FuelDrop wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
Why are you not using Ravagers ?
The immunity to Alpha Strike, and 1 more shot.

And, let's be honest, a glorious price on the Scourges box. You can almost get 10 scourges for the price of 1 Ravager.

4 shots at 4+ (mobile lance scourges) = 3 shots at 3+ (Ravager)

Immune to Alpha strike is a fair point.

Pricetag is a VERY good point Smile

No other good choices in HS, where FA are full of them.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 13:31

Not so sure about the FA being so full of good choices.

- Beasts are nice, but you can take them in the same slot as a Beastmaster, so they don't count (unless you take a screen birds unit)
- Planes are no longer FA/HS, they are airborn
- Hellions are meh
- Reavers are meh
- Scourges are great
- Transports are no longer FA, they are Dedicated Transports

I get that you don't like our MC, but Heavy Support has the Reaper and the Tantalus, so in this edition our HS is superior to our FA.

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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 13:40

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Not so sure about the FA being so full of good choices.

- Beasts are nice, but you can take them in the same slot as a Beastmaster, so they don't count (unless you take a screen birds unit)
- Planes are no longer FA/HS, they are airborn
- Hellions are meh
- Reavers are meh
- Scourges are great
- Transports are no longer FA, they are Dedicated Transports

I get that you don't like our MC, but Heavy Support has the Reaper and the Tantalus, so in this edition our HS is superior to our FA.

Both Reavers and Hellions are pretty good. I changed my mind over Hellions, they still good, just a different role as before faq.

Beasts are good even if you buy one Beastmaster. You can use 2 units per Master, and if you feel up your CP you can consider to use them for breaking tests.

Depends of the list anyway Smile I like to play both Ravagers AND Scourges, so..
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 13:45

Reavers are overpriced units with not enough offensive potential.
Hellions are very good units that just don't have the defensive ability to use their great offensive potential.
As i said, if you're fielding beasts for something more than bubblewrapping, you're taking a beastmaster, and FO charts doesn't matter then.

And it's not true that we have no good HS choice, since Tantalus and Reapers are both excellent picks.
In 7th edition, i would have agreed with your statement that FA was vastly superior to HS. But in 8th edition it's not the case.

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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 15:08

@Mppqlmd wrote:
Reavers are overpriced units with not enough offensive potential.
Hellions are very good units that just don't have the defensive ability to use their great offensive potential.
As i said, if you're fielding beasts for something more than bubblewrapping, you're taking a beastmaster, and FO charts doesn't matter then.

And it's not true that we have no good HS choice, since Tantalus and Reapers are both excellent picks.
In 7th edition, i would have agreed with your statement that FA was vastly superior to HS. But in 8th edition it's not the case.

I disagree with both Hellions and Reavers. And I don't like Reapers and Tantalus, but it's a matter of taste
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 15:11

@Cerve wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
Reavers are overpriced units with not enough offensive potential.
Hellions are very good units that just don't have the defensive ability to use their great offensive potential.
As i said, if you're fielding beasts for something more than bubblewrapping, you're taking a beastmaster, and FO charts doesn't matter then.

And it's not true that we have no good HS choice, since Tantalus and Reapers are both excellent picks.
In 7th edition, i would have agreed with your statement that FA was vastly superior to HS. But in 8th edition it's not the case.

I disagree with both Hellions and Reavers. And I don't like Reapers and Tantalus, but it's a matter of taste

What are your opinions on Reavers then? I've yet to see anyone who doesn't think they're overpriced in 8e.

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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 15:52

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
Reavers are overpriced units with not enough offensive potential.
Hellions are very good units that just don't have the defensive ability to use their great offensive potential.
As i said, if you're fielding beasts for something more than bubblewrapping, you're taking a beastmaster, and FO charts doesn't matter then.

And it's not true that we have no good HS choice, since Tantalus and Reapers are both excellent picks.
In 7th edition, i would have agreed with your statement that FA was vastly superior to HS. But in 8th edition it's not the case.

I disagree with both Hellions and Reavers. And I don't like Reapers and Tantalus, but it's a matter of taste

What are your opinions on Reavers then? I've yet to see anyone who doesn't think they're overpriced in 8e.

I'm not sure that they are overpriced, is just because in our army they seems to be.

But they are flying Bikes, 2 wounds, 4+ save, Drugs (T5 is heavy),Str4 rend -1 in CC autoinclude, nice boost when run AND PfP.
They are kinda "MeQ" for a Dark Eldar, but I can't say that 30 points are too much if I look out from our Index.

I think that makes them cheaper will be make them an autoinclude unit, which seems kinda bad for me. For now, they have a role that no other DE unit has, they are our fast MeQ unit.
They are amazing for harrass strategies, and killing of characters. They bring an amazing late game power, and they can soak more damage than anyother unit in the index if the enemy want to focus them down. Plus, mixing it with their agility will bring to you a real pain in the ass for your opponent.

I tried all the units in this Codex (well....no, I haven't tried Urghul and Medusae, nor Khymerae in 8th edition), but I can't find anyother unit that can do all the jobs that Reavers can do.


The problem is that they still expensive FOR A DE. You have to invest for them..but I always felt my points in Reaver extremely valued. Must be honest, the characteristic of these guys worth 30 points. Don't forget that those still work into an Ynnari list, with Ynnari rules.
But no, they are not necessary, as nothing in this index is.
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 23:17

Kit out 4 scourges with dark lances and take yvraine. 8 shots from those guys is very very nice.
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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Sat Aug 05 2017, 05:13

We discussed this on the upcoming episode of Splintermind. Let's just say that I'm really glad the Heat Lances on my Scourges are magnetized... Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: How should i kit out my Scourges?   Sat Aug 05 2017, 06:55

I've liked a squad with lances and a squad with blasters. Blasters can move, advance, and shoot and are a great clean-up unit for the vehicle that survived rest of the phase with just a few wounds left. After that they're a distraction, drawing resources away from the important parts of your army (like the scourges with lances hoping to go unnoticed).
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