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 How would you fix reavers?

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 04:47

Maintain net cost was meant to mean "reduce bike cost so bike + weapon costs as much as current bike alone"
Shard carbines are not on par for firepower/cost ratio.

Bladevanes S=user would hard nerf the bikes. How about makr a new weapon: Vehicle bladevanes, which are S=user

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 05:05

Make them a charge oriented unit again. Like d3 attacks with Bladevanes on the charge, maybe throw in some rending, and make the Grav Talon and Calatrops more reliable/actually do something other than cause 1 mortal wound sometimes maybe half of the time.

Let's break this problem down with some math. In their current iteration, Reavers lack the offensive oomph to compete with our other melee units.

First, let's find out the offensive output of your average Reaver.
They get two shots with a Splinter Rifle.
2 Attacks -> 1.33 Hits -> .67 Wounds -> .44 Dead Guardsmen -> .22 Dead Marines.
In Assault, you get,
2 Attacks -> 1.33 Hits -> .89 Wounds on T3 -> .67 Wounds on T4 -> .74 Dead Guardsmen -> .33 Dead Marines.

For a grand total of 1.18 Dead Guardsmen and .55 Dead Marines.

Already seems pretty lackluster, but let's compare it to equivalent points in some other assault units.

Starting off with three Wyches, firing their Splinter Pistols.
3 Attacks -> 2 Hits -> 1 Wound -> .67 Dead Guardsmen -> .33 Dead Marines.
In assault, they're granted,
6 Attacks -> 4 Hits -> 2 Wounds on T3 -> 1.33 Wounds on T4 -> 1.33 Dead Guardsmen -> .44 Dead Marines.

For a total of, 2 Dead Guardsmen and .77 Dead Marines.
Already I think we can see the problem. A unit in the Troops Slot, with one more Wound, a 4++ Invuln and the ability to tarpit already outshines the bikes...while costing 3 Points less overall.

Let's move on to Hellions.
First with their Splinter Pods
6 Attacks -> 4 Hits -> 2 Wounds -> 1.33 Dead Guardsmen -> .67 Dead Marines.
Next in Assault
6 Attacks-> 4 Hits -> 2.67 Wounds against T3 -> 2 Wounds against T4 -> 1.78 Dead Guardsmen -> .67 Dead Marines.

For a total of, 3.11 Dead Guardsmen, 1.33 Dead Marines.

Now while this is four points more expensive, that hardly excuses a more than 100% increase in offensive power, and while they certainly suffer from a lower survivability, their Hit and Run ability allows them to be a versatile annoyance to the enemy.

Finally, let's take a look at Khymeras, no shooting, and we'll assume there's no Beastmaster nearby.

9 Attacks -> 6 Hits -> 4 Wounds against T3 -> 3 Wounds against T4 -> 2.67 Dead Guardsmen -> 1 Dead Marine.

No need for a Grand total here. While they aren't exactly maneuverable, even Khymeras leave Reavers in the dust...while having an Invuln and equal Toughness to boot.

Thus highlights the problem with Reavers, there's not much that they can do that other units can't fulfil better.

Now let's look at my proposal, d3 Bladevane attacks when having charged with Rending. (6+ to Wound resolved at AP -3)

4 Attacks -> 2.66 Hits -> 1.33 Normal Wounds on T3 -> .89 Normal Wounds on T4 -> .44 Rending Wounds -> 1.55 Dead Guardsmen -> .81 Dead Marines.

Adding to their previous shooting gets us..2 Dead Guardsmen and 1.03 Dead Marines.

Still not the best of the lot, but that, combined with its decent movement and survivability, would at least make it competitive when compared to the rest of the index.

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 05:12

We could turn them into our anti horde unit, giving them bonus attacks against large units. It fills a niche we are kinda weak in too.
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Bedlam55
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 06:41

@FuelDrop wrote:
Maintain net cost was meant to mean "reduce bike cost so bike + weapon costs as much as current bike alone"
Shard carbines are not on par for firepower/cost ratio.

Bladevanes S=user would hard nerf the bikes. How about makr a new weapon: Vehicle bladevanes, which are S=user

I forgot there base S3 Sleep

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 13:55

Make Bladevanes S+1, AP-1, D3 extra attacks.

Give Vehicles some other weapon with SU, AP-1.

Grav Talon should roll D6 for each model within 1" of the model and deal a Mortal Wound on a 3+.

Cluster Caltrops should trigger when EITHER side falls back. D6 S6 AP-2 hits.

Grav Talons keep price.
Cluster Caltrops: 10 points.
Any bike can take either.
Heat Lances should be the same price as a Blaster. Damage and AP trades off for strength, same range, type and rate of fire.
Keep the guns to 1/3 models.

Bike price drop to 25 ppm.

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Bedlam55
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 02:16

@Ikol wrote:

Cluster Caltrops should trigger when EITHER side falls back.  

This and every model not unit should trigger Caltrops

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Last edited by Bedlam55 on Fri Aug 04 2017, 13:21; edited 1 time in total
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 08:49

Or maybe just give them the ability that every reaver may take cluster cultrops or stuff?

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Ahrall
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 22:09

The issues with reavers right now is they just don't have that punch like you would expect from them. As a wych cult unit they should excel in combat but their basic attacks are laughable and the caltrops/grav talon... maybe you will get a mortal wound over the span of the entire game.

Give the caltrops/talon some damage again!
D3 maybe D6 mortal wounds when you charge with the talon.
D3 maybe D6 mortal wounds if an ENEMY falls back from the caltrops. This gives fun interaction from you opponent. "Do I stay in combat and try to kill off the reavers or do I fall back and get chunked."
Hell, remove the extra wound from them while we are at it. They are supposed to be ultra light, built for speed and speed alone. Just because other bikes got +1 wound doesn't mean every bike has to
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Fri Aug 04 2017, 22:30

Make Reavers Great Again!

In all seriousness, I am fine if they stay at 30 points and lose the extra wound, provided they hit like a 30 point 1 wound model with an unexceptional base strength and toughness.

Lots of firepower and melee killyness, but folds like a cheap suit if they get any serious firepower in return.

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