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 How would you fix reavers?

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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 08:58

That would help on the shooty front a little, sure. Better/cheaper weapon options would also be nice.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 08:59

@FuelDrop wrote:
That would help on the shooty front a little, sure. Better/cheaper weapon options would also be nice.

Not just shooting

3 Caltrops or Grav Talons
3 Agoniser's

Etc.....

You can make them fully custom at that point

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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 09:58

Jeah 2 main points,
1 make them have more special weapons, we are a glass cannon army and they fail there.
2 make them cheaper because they do not have a good enough function right now for their price cost,
or give them a better function. Right now they are to expensive even compared to other bikers which usually are very expensive, ork bikes cost less, have either more attacks in melee or better thoughness or both (depending if we waste our best drugs on our reavers) and more and better shooting then we do 6 s5 shots each, have a nob in there which has some good weapon options and only really missing fly and a tiny bit over speed. Here again come our 2 problems, our whole army has poinson weapons thus they become worse then just s4 weapons and most of our army has fly which is great but also gives limited returns after you already have 5 units with fly.
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bitlere
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PostSubject: Twin linked weapons   Mon Jul 31 2017, 10:02

Give then twin splinter weapons at the least. Every other bike unit in 40k has twin linked weapons. Twin bolters is better against almost everything, including monsters than single splinter rifles
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 10:11

Imagine for a moment if they had Splinter Cannons instead of Splinter Rifles as their stock weapons!
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 10:40

@bitlere wrote:
Give then twin splinter weapons at the least.  Every other bike unit in 40k has twin linked weapons.  Twin bolters is better against almost everything,  including monsters than single splinter rifles
Well no, it's worse against T8+. But i agree, the mono splinter rifle makes those 30pts model a joke.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 10:43

It's a not dissimilar problem to what Terminators used to deal with. Highly durable (relative to their army), but a distinct lack of killing power except for a couple of special/heavy weapons. Termies didn't have it quite so bad since they got a lot of really good unique heavy weapons and have power fists. Reavers lack the killing power that a 30 point DE model really needs, in both melee and at range.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 12:32

I would like to see them with either grav talons or caltrops on all bikes. Then they would start feeling like a fast objective grabber that can also be a decent assault unit. I'd like for them to remain an assault unit first and foremost, since they are a wych cult unit. That said, I wouldn't mind if the heat lance became 5 pts cheaper (and the dark lance 5 pts more expensive, but that's a different story).

If the shooting must be improved for some reason, I'd go for twin rifles, or maybe pods to have assault rule on the shooting attack.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 13:05

@amishprn86 wrote:
Easy, let each on have upgrades like every other eldar bikes, Windrider, Skyweavers and Cloud Dancers all can have 1 weapon per.

Reavers just need 1 Weapon per
You would play them like that? I still think their biggest advantage is little loss of power as long as the models with spec weapons and caltrops stay up.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 13:09

If that was an option, i'd take 4 special weapons on 6 reavers. That way you have 4 wounds before you lose efficiency, but you pack a nice punch with 4 blasters/HL.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 13:26

Even if they'd cost almost 300pts?!
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 13:59

Jeah that is the problem. Why not just take 2 more ravagers then?
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 14:23

I'm counting 240 points, which is a lot indeed.

But 240 points for 4 blasters is a lot better than 210 for 2 blasters.

But reavers are obviously overpriced.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 21:59

@Mppqlmd wrote:
I'm counting 240 points, which is a lot indeed.

But 240 points for 4 blasters is a lot better than 210 for 2 blasters.

But reavers are obviously overpriced.

This, they are over costed yes but you are correct and thats why .....

@aurynn wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Easy, let each on have upgrades like every other eldar bikes, Windrider, Skyweavers and Cloud Dancers all can have 1 weapon per.

Reavers just need 1 Weapon per
You would play them like that? I still think their biggest advantage is little loss of power as long as the models with spec weapons and caltrops stay up.

... thats why, you have better options for about the same points, you have a better unit over all.


Reavers only come with 1 per 3 b.c the kits were made that way in 5th, where in 5th they were MADE to not be a specialized unit they were a fly by unit.

We lost the fly by.... so now we are left with trash.

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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Mon Jul 31 2017, 23:12

We lost the fly by a while ago, and in 7th edition Reavers were easily the best unit in the codex (arguably, but definitly in the top 3). 2d6 HOW rending hits of S6 was NOT a joke, and 3+ jink (2+ in nightfighting) made them unkillable.
So it's definitly possible to make them useful.
The guy that thought "50% of dealing a mortal wound" was a good replacement for "1d6 rending autohit S6" was clearly under drugs.
And so was the man that thought doubling a unit's HP justifies doubling its cost.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Tue Aug 01 2017, 00:10

@Mppqlmd wrote:
We lost the fly by a while ago, and in 7th edition Reavers were easily the best unit in the codex (arguably, but definitly in the top 3). 2d6 HOW rending hits of S6 was NOT a joke, and 3+ jink (2+ in nightfighting) made them unkillable.
So it's definitly possible to make them useful.
The guy that thought "50% of dealing a mortal wound" was a good replacement for "1d6 rending autohit S6" was clearly under drugs.
And so was the man that thought doubling a unit's HP justifies doubling its cost.

Yeah, I haven't even looked at those options with an eye to buying. If it was an automatic D3 or D6 mortal wounds when the enemy falls back it might be workable as a deterrent from the enemy just stepping out of combat (and if they're ultramarines, just flat out gunning us down), but I cannot think of anyone who'll look at "50% chance of taking 1 mortal wound" and not go "Sure, that is a minor annoyance. I have a chance to lose my one guardsman/take a wound on my terminator/whatever, and in return my nearby units can gun these damn bikes down"

Maybe during playtesting they saw that people weren't fleeing combat with reaver jetbikes and assumed that the deterrent was working, rather than thinking that maybe the unit itself was so crap no-one saw a need to flee?
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Tue Aug 01 2017, 05:33

@Mppqlmd wrote:
We lost the fly by a while ago, and in 7th edition Reavers were easily the best unit in the codex (arguably, but definitly in the top 3). 2d6 HOW rending hits of S6 was NOT a joke, and 3+ jink (2+ in nightfighting) made them unkillable.
So it's definitly possible to make them useful.
The guy that thought "50% of dealing a mortal wound" was a good replacement for "1d6 rending autohit S6" was clearly under drugs.
And so was the man that thought doubling a unit's HP justifies doubling its cost.

It doesnt matter if we lost it in 6th, 7th or in 8th, the "Kit" was made in 5th for 5th rules, and 5th ed had the Fly by.

In order to update the rules to fit more weapon options they have to change the kit (unless you are SM or CSM those 2 armies for some reason get away with models without kits but almost every other army doesnt).

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Tue Aug 01 2017, 05:54

Guys... that doubling the cost... lets face it - the Reavers were quite undercosted in 7th so... yeah. My issue with them now is just lack of invul. Otherwise they are just used differently now than before.

As for jink making them unkillable - I lost unit of 6 every battle. With all those ignore cover stuff the jink was almost situational.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Tue Aug 01 2017, 06:55

I feel that Reavers are seriously underarmed for bikes (practically every bike you can name has either twin linked weapons or a heavy weapon) as far as range is concerned, and their melee loadout is underwhelming for cost.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Tue Aug 01 2017, 07:15

I agree the rpoblem is not that they are not though enough anymore.
The problem is they are not damaging enough, they almost feel like bikers without damage. We have our splinter rifles which are against most armies worse then bolters, and then every other biker gets a double of that, and most have the option of having special weapons.
A resonably though fast unit is nice, but if it is no threat it can just be ignored. And right now it just is not enough of a threat. It needs some oomph or a major price decrease.

That being said, while having more special guns might make it more viable, I think it should not be their function.
They belong to wych cult. Let them mess it up in melee, make the Grav always hit during the charge and possibly do d3 mortal wounds. And maybe make the Cluster caltrops deal damage as they fly over a unit (possibly just 1 mortal wound since they take less risk, or d3 on a 4+). Or maybe even a simple thing make the bladevanes strength 5. (I think it is stupid our large decapatating vehicles hit at str 4, Jeah I have this large 10 man carrying boat with sharp blades on all sides fly into you at breakneck speed, you now have a 50% that you have nothing more then a slight scratch on your neck...) People are supposed to be cut in half by these things.

As an alternative make them fast, as in put their move up to 20-24, or let them charge after advancing. Make them not the hardest hitters (because let's admit it they do not hit hard right now), but allow them to hit werever it hurts the most. Make them the mobile 1 man flyers they are described as being in the lore.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Tue Aug 01 2017, 07:59

For comparison, my buddy plays Chaos and with the recent releases we worked out how much firepower a squad of Chaos bikers could put out.

3 man squad. 2 flamers, combi-flamer on the champion. Mark of Slaanesh for the new stratagem that allows them to fire twice.

Net output for the three bikes is 24 boltgun shots hitting on 3's (12 shots for the 6 boltguns on the bikes, doubled for firing twice), 4 more boltgun shots hitting on 4's (combi weapon), and 6d6 flamer hits (3 flamer weapons, doubled for firing twice).

That is enough to put a serious dent in most infantry and can completely annihilate entire squads of cannon fodder!

We can't put out anything near that! and their melee is comparable to ours, as both are ST 4 (and as Slaaneshi they have Always Strikes in Charge Phase). And they have better armour. And higher toughness.

EDIT: Just checked in with my friend. Said squad comes in at 124 points. Not cheap.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Tue Aug 01 2017, 08:13

@FuelDrop wrote:
For comparison, my buddy plays Chaos and with the recent releases we worked out how much firepower a squad of Chaos bikers could put out.

3 man squad. 2 flamers, combi-flamer on the champion. Mark of Slaanesh for the new stratagem that allows them to fire twice.

Net output for the three bikes is 24 boltgun shots hitting on 3's (12 shots for the 6 boltguns on the bikes, doubled for firing twice), 4 more boltgun shots hitting on 4's (combi weapon), and 6d6 flamer hits (3 flamer weapons, doubled for firing twice).

That is enough to put a serious dent in most infantry and can completely annihilate entire squads of cannon fodder!

We can't put out anything near that! and their melee is comparable to ours, as both are ST 4 (and as Slaaneshi they have Always Strikes in Charge Phase). And they have better armour. And higher toughness.

So DE's problem is that it was made for 5th, and ever sense then the rules still have been tailor to be 5th bases.

GW still wont bring us out of the 5th mentality for some unknown reasons and some known ones.

Yes Chaos bikers are vastly superior, heck a lot of things about them are (I would LOVE to have the Lord Customization for out Archon as they do).

We all need to plea with GW to buff them.

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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 03:43

Just make there cost ether 25-22 points and leave them as they are.

Edit: Also make Heat lances 10-15 points

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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 04:14

Maintain net cost.
Swap stock splinter rifle with splinter cannon.
Bladevanes are S5 on charge.
Can shoot with no penalties/assault after advancing.
Cheaper heat lances
Boom. Fast, Shooty shock cav unit.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you fix reavers?   Thu Aug 03 2017, 04:29

@FuelDrop wrote:
Bladevanes are S5 on charge.
Boom. Fast, Shooty shock cav unit.

Make Bladevanes S=user instead - this would buff venom's and raiders to.

@FuelDrop wrote:
Maintain net cost.
Swap stock splinter rifle with splinter cannon.
Can shoot with no penalties/assault after advancing.

Change these to shard carbines instead - splinter cannon would make them cost too much.

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