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 are 5 mandrakes useful

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: are 5 mandrakes useful   Mon Jul 31 2017, 01:18

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Wounding on 6s isn't really what I'd call a "healthy" source of mortal wounds. But for the points comparison, I'd be interested to see math on 10 Mandrakes vs 5 Incubi and vanilla Venom guns (since the Incubi would necessitate a transport).

Let's see, shall we? I'll base this off of MEQ, as that's where Incubi are intended to fight.

10 Mandrakes - Shooting
20 Shots -> 13.33 Hits -> 6.67 Wounds -> 2.22 Mortal Wounds -> 5.55 Dead Marines.

10 Mandrakes - Melee
32 Attacks -> 21.33 Hits -> 10.67 Wounds -> 3.56 Dead Marines.

Now let's move to Incubi,
5 Incubi - Melee
16 Attacks -> 10.67 Hits -> 5.33 Wounds -> 4.44 Dead Marines.

Venom - Shooting
10 Attacks -> 6.67 Hits -> 3.33 Wounds -> 1.11 Dead Marines.

Venom - Melee
Bladevanes: 2 Attacks -> 1 Hit -> .5 Wounds -> .25 Dead Marines.
CCW: 2 Attacks -> 1 Hit -> .67 Wounds -> .22 Dead Marines.

So, combining casualties, looks like Mandrakes will kill a total of 9.11 Marines, while the Incubi/Venom combo will kill a measly 5.8. Yeesh, but that's not the only consideration. Let's look at durability.

It will take 54.00 strength 4 attacks to Wipe out the Mandrakes
It'll take 72 Boltguns to wipe out the Venom, or 54 Close Combat attacks.

It'll take 40.5 Strength 4 Attacks to take out the Incubi.

Looks like if you want firepower, go with Mandrakes, if you want durability go with the Incubi.

Mandrakes will be have a greater initial movement, but less after their initial deployment, while the Venom will be forced to start in the deployment zone, but will be able to zoom around as needed afterwards.
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Darkin
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PostSubject: Re: are 5 mandrakes useful   Mon Jul 31 2017, 02:25

@TheBaconPope wow
that was the info i needed now ill go with mandrakes
they will round out my army a lot better than incubi!
thanks
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: are 5 mandrakes useful   Mon Jul 31 2017, 11:12

@TheBaconPope wrote:


It will take 54.00 strength 4 attacks to Wipe out the Mandrakes
It'll take 72 Boltguns to wipe out the Venom, or 54 Close Combat attacks.

It'll take 40.5 Strength 4 Attacks to take out the Incubi.

Looks like if you want firepower, go with Mandrakes, if you want durability go with the Incubi.

That not doing the mandrakes justice. First, Hard to hit makes them very resilient against, say, Orks, but not so much against SM, so it's hard to take that into statistics (unless you calculate for every BS separatly).
In addition, any AP weapon will wreck Incubi, where as Mandrakes don't give a damn about it. So yes, Incubi take bolter shots with ease, but Mandrakes won't die because of a few heavy weapon shots.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: are 5 mandrakes useful   Mon Jul 31 2017, 13:15

Also with all the talk about conscript spam, they are really though for those conscripts as well. (as in you need 6 shots/attacks to hit means 12 to average one wound or 18 to pass saves means over 20 after PFP)
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: are 5 mandrakes useful   Mon Jul 31 2017, 14:26

20 shots from conscripts is a mere 30 points.
30 points of conscript killing 17points of mandrakes in a single round (without orders) is not what i call good ^^

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: are 5 mandrakes useful   Mon Jul 31 2017, 16:09

Mandrakes are very useful, but they are *far* more useful as a shooting unit than a close combat unit. Also, they are great for dropping on top of objectives in the middle of the game.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: are 5 mandrakes useful   Mon Jul 31 2017, 16:18

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That not doing the mandrakes justice. First, Hard to hit makes them very resilient against, say, Orks, but not so much against SM, so it's hard to take that into statistics (unless you calculate for every BS separatly).

It's also very unlikely that a Venom is going to be shot to death by Bolter Tac Marines. I based all of this off of MEQs, as it seemed unfair to put Incubi against the unit they weren't designed to fight.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: are 5 mandrakes useful   Mon Jul 31 2017, 22:54

@TheBaconPope wrote:


It's also very unlikely that a Venom is going to be shot to death by Bolter Tac Marines. I based all of this off of MEQs, as it seemed unfair to put Incubi against the unit they weren't designed to fight.

Indeed. I just think it's a bit unfair to say Incubi are more resilient than Mandrakes, as they are differently resilient against different targets. But you did great math, and we are thankful of your time Smile
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Kurdush
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PostSubject: Re: are 5 mandrakes useful   Tue Aug 01 2017, 10:19

Yes, five Mandrakes in the shadows is really useful. It can easily get you a few valuable points in a maelstrom game and cause problems for your opponents backfield support units. When we get plastic mandrakes I'll be getting more... (But when we get plastic Incubi, I'll be getting more of those too!)
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Darkin
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PostSubject: Re: are 5 mandrakes useful   Tue Aug 01 2017, 12:08

@Kurdush wrote:
Yes, five Mandrakes in the shadows is really useful. It can easily get you a few valuable points in a maelstrom game and cause problems for your opponents backfield support units. When we get plastic mandrakes I'll be getting more... (But when we get plastic Incubi, I'll be getting more of those too!)
will they come back in plastic at any time?
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: are 5 mandrakes useful   Tue Aug 01 2017, 12:39

Time can only tell Smile
IMO there are priorities for GW in the DE catalogue. The most obvious would be making a plastic BOX for beasts packs. And maybe the court of the archon.

Mandrakes are resin, yes, but they are not mono-pause. We still have many mono-pause, sold 1 by 1, overpriced models.
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masamune
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PostSubject: Re: are 5 mandrakes useful   Tue Aug 01 2017, 14:18

If you want to add some variety they are good suggestions for alternative models in the painting/modelling sticky threads

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