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 Reaver Shooting

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Groan
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PostSubject: Reaver Shooting    Fri Jul 28 2017, 17:08

So my understanding of the rule regarding pistols is that if a model is equipped with a pistol and another type of weapon, you are unable to shoot both and must choose which weapon type you are shooting with.

The index states that Reaver pilots are equipped with a pistol and that their bikes have splinter rifles. Does the above mention rule apply and I am unable to shoot with both in the same phase. Or does the wording allow me to get around this?
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Unorthodoxy
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Fri Jul 28 2017, 17:16

Pistols and grenades both limit you to EITHER firing them, or firing every other weapon you have.

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Groan
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Fri Jul 28 2017, 17:32

So the fact that the pistol is on the pilot and the other weapon is on the bike doesn't make any difference?

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Fri Jul 28 2017, 18:46

Are you trying to apply logic to this game ? If so, stop it immediatly please. You are making my rulebook uncomfortable.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Fri Jul 28 2017, 19:49

The pistols are just there so that the reavers can fire them while locked in close combat. Treat them as you would tactical marines carrying bolt pistols in addition to bolters.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Fri Jul 28 2017, 21:31

Yeah, unfortunately the biker and bike are one model. So you can't shoot the bike guns and the pistols.
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Groan
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Fri Jul 28 2017, 22:28

Thanks for clearing that up.
I'm not loving the Reavers in 8th, especially regarding the fact they're 30p a pop.
Would it really be such a crime to allow them to do something remotely cool?
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Fri Jul 28 2017, 23:08

Quote :
Would it really be such a crime to allow them to do something remotely cool?

It's apparently an even more horrific offense than using third party models, if the desecration between the past two books is any indication.

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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Sat Jul 29 2017, 01:54

If they were 5 points cheaper id seriously consider running 18+ as they are still a really good unit. Just slightly overcosted/undertued for their cost and it really is only a tiny amount.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Sat Jul 29 2017, 02:01

Cluster caltrops could use an improvement too. Grav-talons are fine as-is. However, cluster caltrops, since you have to either survive a charge, or stay in close combat until the next round after charging, should have a greater reward for the greater risk (I would suggest 1D3 mortal wounds per caltrop instead of the 1).
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Sat Jul 29 2017, 10:58

Agreed. The only scenario where cluster caltrops is not a worse Grav talon is if you allowed your reavers to get charged. If you allow a 16" model to get charged, you are doing it wrong anyway ^^

I think Cluster caltrops are badly designed, and should not work with falling back : there is no point in equiping a unit with a fall back mecanic if it doesn't have Hit and Run. Cluster Caltrops should have the rules of yore : inflict mortal wounds when you fly over a unit.

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Britishgrotesque
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Sat Jul 29 2017, 17:00

But they do have fly, surely cluster caltrops is meant for when you kit them out in blasters, so you can shoot, charge, attack, then stay safe from fire for one turn, with hopefully their models not shooting for a turn, then when it's your turn you can move back, hitting them with possible mortal wounds before firing. This is a strategy with our transports, why can't Reavers do it? Their problem is their cost.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Sat Jul 29 2017, 17:11

The problem with a weapon designed to work when you fall back is that you will NEVER use it if your opponent doesn't want you to. If your opponent falls back everytime (which i'm fine with, since it prevents him from shooting), your cluster caltrops are lost points.
There is no reason to take Cluster Caltrops over Grav talon.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Sat Jul 29 2017, 19:57

You pay the points to force the opponent to make bad choices. Which is not neccesary bad in itself.

The problem is that you have this on a unit that is though, but not very damaging in itself. The enemy thus does not have to make a hard decision.
The enemy has no reason to charge them, you pay nearly as much for 1 heat lance and caltrop unit as you do for a ravager. Guess which has priority the 1 s6 shot or the 3 s8? If they were lethal the enemy would have to do something about them and in some cases it could be throw an expensive melee unit at them to kill them and if he fails he suffers mortal wounds. But right now he can just ignore them for the most part, maybe shoot a bit at them if there is nothing else to shoot at.
Now if all of them would have a heat lance and the price would not be as high, then those caltrops might have some use.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Sat Jul 29 2017, 20:44

For me there are 2 scenarios :
- You want your reavers to be in cc ? Then they are the ones charging (and they shoot beforehand), and gravtalon are better.
- You don't want them in cc ? If so, your enemy shouldn't be able to engage them (except if you want them to be at melta range, but yeah, heat lances are sooo good), and cluster caltrops are useless.

I can't think of a scenario where cluster caltrops might be more useful than grav talons. At their best, they are equivalent. The only scenario where they shine is if you're being charged. I'm not inclined to buy a weapon that only procs if i play like a potato.

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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Sat Jul 29 2017, 21:01

That is the thing, if the reavers and heatlances were viable, you might wish to be in metla range and thus the cluster caltrops would not useless. As it is, they are useless.
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Sat Jul 29 2017, 21:17

Yep, you're right. And that's only because Eldar Jetbikes lost their super special rule of moving in the assault phase !

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TheHostwiththeMost
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Sun Jul 30 2017, 21:57

At least with ynnari you can soulburst fall back to avoid the second half of combat when you multi charge, as long as you kill the first unit.  This is probably the only use I see for this and its highly specialized...

Not optimal, but possible.

I agree though, cluster caltrops are underwhelming.  The risk is not worth the reward even at 5 points. Even if it guaranteed a mortal wound to each unit within 1" before you fall back it still would be lack luster.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Sun Jul 30 2017, 21:59

@TheHostwiththeMost wrote:
At least with ynnari you can soulburst fall back to avoid the second half of combat when you multi charge, as long as you kill the first unit.  This is probably the only use I see for this and its highly specialized..
Never thought of that option, it's quite brilliant Smile
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TheHostwiththeMost
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PostSubject: Re: Reaver Shooting    Sun Jul 30 2017, 22:06

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@TheHostwiththeMost wrote:
At least with ynnari you can soulburst fall back to avoid the second half of combat when you multi charge, as long as you kill the first unit.  This is probably the only use I see for this and its highly specialized..
Never thought of that option, it's quite brilliant Smile

Ynnari changed my life.

You could also soul burst fall back during your opponents fight phase avoiding shooting and the remaining fights.  Again, it a super specific situation, but reavers shouldnt be a priority target for your opponent. Remember you can cast the psychic power from 18" to force a soulburst =)

The crazy thing is that turn is now player turn.  Battle round is for a "game turn".  Think of all the rules that say only once per turn...  Including soulburst (aka you can possibly shoot 3 times per battle round). My favorite...  the rule regarding how many times you can attempt to manifest a psychic power. if only they stacked!!!  double conceal! haha. Oh, cant forget about the shinanigans you can pull forcing soulbursts with yvraine. She can soulburst to manifest and soulburst another unit 18" away during your opponents turn!
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