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 How does everyone feel about the Archon?

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 15:53

I don't want to turn this into a flame, so let's just say we disagree on how we view the Archons. I have read the books and I am not convinced of our Archons being master strategists. They have the potential, but they are crazy and they are not good at much but backstabbing and scheming within Commoragh with few named exceptions like Vect, Malys and few others. (I do agree that our special characters need more work) But normal Archons... naah... Malixian, Yllithian and the others simply pale compared to say Motley.

I like it that way. I consider their abilities now quite fluffy as fear of Archon makes them fight through casualties better and synergic if used properly (namely SF). It may not all be apparent or easy, but that is what kept me with this army for several editions without playing any other even a single time. Not everything is apparent. We are not as straightforward as SM. And if the army will become as apparent as others I will no longer have the enjoyment of it I have now.

Our HQs are not a tax. There are people using them to very good effect as testified in this very thread. If someone cannot find use for them, well... It might... just might be a personal problem, not the problem of the rules. Just consider the possibility. Its the same with many units and sometimes I am at the side of misunderstanding its value, so I do know what I am talking about.

Ofc there is a portion of me that wants us to have better and better options. But I am fully convinced that it is a cheap solution to a problem that does not exist.

@FuelDrop - ofc I read them. They put aside their differences... cults, covens and kabals cooperate... but... accidents happen on the raids. Archons stepping accidentaly off their raiders in flight. Stray point-blank Blaster in the back... Its mentioned in the fluff many times. Thats why Archons have SFs... Saying what you say is IMO misunderstanding of a power system of Commoragh. It is not rare that an Archon goes on a raid and another Archon comes leading the forces back. There is no service hierarchy as with SM, you just kill the dude above you and you step in...

With this I'd like to end my rant, for I do recognize it as a rant, but it is something that needed to get out. I did not want to cause so much stir among the Commoragh Highborn. Smile Tonight's Crucibael feast is on me. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 16:22

I do agree that our HQs leave one feeling wanting. I do like that they are cheap, but I do not like that they don't feel the way a DE character should.

I am not sure what kind of buffs I would like, but they need a little something. It doesn't have to be an aura power, but some ability at least.
The Archon needs some strategic planning type of rule. Maybe he leads by fear or his warriors fight harder when the Archon is around to try and get I to his "good" books.

The Succubus needs to feel just a little more like combat ninja master. Good weapon that deal multiple wounds, or a way to decapitate someone or gain additional attacks or something.

I like the haemonculus. I think he is pretty good. But some kind of repair mechanic would be cool. Or even a haemonculus coven unit would be neat.

I would love to see Web Way Portal assault be a thing again. And an option to attack at night.


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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 18:23

Things that would be good and allow for synergies:

More active ways to apply leadership shenanigans. Maybe this could be the Archon's Aura. Instead of buffing our leadership, debuff the enemy's.

Some means of boosting our Power from Pain (Covens here we come).

Wyches need to output more damage. Reavers should be less survivable, faster and more choppy. Almost everyone needs an extra attack on their profile.

Our Poison needs to be fixed to allow rerolls again when we'd be better off hitting without it.

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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 18:44

The Archon are not necessarly good tacticians, but they are without a doubt excellent strategists.
Their strength may be more in political schemes and mind tricks than in battle stratagems, but they are still geniuses, and should act like it.
As they are now, they are super beefy trueborns that trade the ability to take a DL for +1 BS. If they are supposed to be good shooters, then make them so (by giving them good weapons, like a sniper blaster) ! . If they are supposed to be cruel leaders, then make them so ! If they are supposed to be murder machines, then make them so...
I don't say GW has to give the Archon rules that fit my view of the unit. But they have to give them SOMETHING. In the current state the Archon is a Kabalite Dracon with an Inv save.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 18:59

@Mppqlmd wrote:
In the current state the Archon is a Kabalite Dracon with an Inv save.
As far as I understand it... most of them actually ARE. There are not many really ancient ones.

And they will get something in the Dex. I am sure of it.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 19:41

What you mean is that they are not inherently better, as opposed to Hive Tyrants or Necrons Overlords being inherently better than their troops. And you are correct.
But since the Archon is commanding, he must have something more. Some authority. Better gear (he has shooting options than the regular Trueborns). Better melee options (his only viable option is accessible to the entire army). He is rich, powerful, and he rose to this position of power due to cunning, cruelty, talent, cleverness...

The special rule i have always dreamed of for him is
"Admiral of the realspace fleet : the Archon does not count in the limit of models embarked in a vehicle. While he is in a vehicle, you can chose to place him at the gun point or at the helm. If he does so, he cannot shoot with his weapons. If he is at the helm, the vehicle gains Skilled Rider (so +1 to save). If he is at the weapon post, the vehicle shoots with his BS".
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 21:05

I see him as a master planer. Like being able to do two drops at once, pick up a unit and put it down somewhere else before the start of the game, throwing an additional die for seize the Initiative.
Stuff like that.

But Ifine with him now. Bundle all of them together to get something like Blaster born and a kick as melee "squad"

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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 22:27

The thing about the argument of "I like the archon the way he is because he doesn't have an ability everyone else has" is his ability to "inspire" his troops and use his leadership over their own is not only worthless after turn 4 but is also somewhere in every other army in some form or other and is usually accompanied by a second ability that brings a force multiplier that isn't just "less troops run away because I'm here" so because of that the archon might as well not have an aura at all. And that being said the Succubus' reroll aura is also all over other armies. So you can't exactly claim that you don't want our archon to be like anyone else when the succubus is a worse perpetrator of that. The haemys ability is unique enough but as I've said for a while it would be nice if he could heal coven units ... Or units in general that aren't vehicles. As most imperium and chaos armies have a huge force multiplier that we, eldar and I believe Tau lack ... And that is a form of an apothecary. So in all honesty if we want a force multiplier on an archon ability make it something like this

"Webway Reserves" the Archon is a tactical genius and always has reserves to come in at just the right moment. The archon can use this ability once per turn before movement, pick any DRUHKARI unit with the keyword INFANTRY, MANDRAKE, or INCUBI, within twelve inches of the archon. If this unit has lost any models (killed or fled) the unit may immediately gain D6 (or D3) models back equipped within the limits of the unit (this ability cannot put the unit above it's starting deployment number)."

So say turn 3 you lost a venom and a Trueborn dies, and then another 3 die to shooting so you only have one left, he makes his moral check and your turn starts the archon is standing 10" away and activates his ability, targets the one Trueborn and the guy rolls a 4, so the four Trueborn that were lost come back 3 equipped with blasters and a Dracon with his pgl and agonizer.

Suddenly not only do we have an incredibly fluffy "aura ability" we also have the synergy people demand, while it isn't "unique" in that it's a different wording for a healing ability it's something more closely aligned with what an archon would do. Of course this ability would push the archon up to about 100 points or so ... But I think that's a fair trade off ...
Feel free to critique this idea and let me know what you think.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 22:40

I don't think bringing people back would fit our gamestyle very much. Those ability are there for attrition, and we don't win by attrition.
Instead, the Web Way shenanigans should (imo) be a stratagem allowing you to deep strike units, raven guard style. That would feel more Dark Eldar than a "healing" factor.

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 22:52

Hm, let's break this down part by part.

Quote :
The archon can use this ability once per turn before movement

That in itself seems an almost broken level of power to me. It'd be one thing to have it a one use only, but once per turn per Archon is a bit too over the top in my opinion.

Quote :
pick any DRUHKARI unit with the keyword INFANTRY, MANDRAKE, or INCUBI, within twelve inches of the archon.

Incubi you might get away with, but the ability to recover any infantry unit seems a little over the top. Thinking from the ever so present mindset of "how can I exploit this," I see a Haemy, an Archon, and T6 Grots that are impossible to kill.

Quote :
If this unit has lost any models (killed or fled) the unit may immediately gain D6 (or D3) models back equipped within the limits of the unit (this ability cannot put the unit above it's starting deployment number).

D6 seems a little extreme, that's 3.5 models recovered per Archon per turn. The stipulation that they can be equipped with any option also adds a bit of a flair of mid game list changes. Changing a Splinter Rifle to a Dark Lance T3 seems a little over the top.

---

With all that said, I think this rule can be altered to allow for it to be a lot more fair in a few ways.

1. Limit it to once per game per Archon, or at the very least once per turn regardless of the number of units with the ability. This will keep lists that are simply Necrons with Spikes from emerging.

2. Limit the ability to units with both <KABAL> and <INFANTRY> This will keep an ever regenerating Horde of Grots from shambling across the board refusing to die. You may also throw <INCUBI> into the mix, I don't see much of a harm in it.

3. Go with D3, that seems a bit more reasonable.

4. Limit the regeneration to what models originally had equipped, one of the things I like about 8th is that it's eliminated the "You get all of this stuff for free" mentality that was so dreadfully apparent in 7th.

---

However, I have to agree, with a previous commenter on this one. Reinforcement isn't our style. I think either Deep Striking units or strategic redeployment of units would be better. (Where for every Archon you could move a single drop anywhere in your deployment zone before the game starts.)

---

Edited to include afterthoughts and fix typos.
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 22:58

@FuelDrop wrote:
Either make our HQs grant strategic buffs from being master schemers potentially older than the Imperium, or make them insanely good at their roles, or make them cheap.

Yes the dark eldar are selfish backstabbers, but they bring their A game to raids. Archons should grant strategic buffs such as boosting seize the initiative, night fighting ect, the Succubus should be a terrifying death machine in melee who can be kitted to hunt monsters, characters, or entire squads of lesser foes, and the Haemi should be horror incarnate, rebuilding his walking nightmares on the field faster than you can gun them down and giggling insanely when you shoot the bastard with an anti tank gun and he JUST. WON'T. DIE!

Side bitch. The Archon should have access to literally every weapon in the codex, along with Ghostplate Armour. His wargear list should be unrivaled, and include relics from before the fall. Archons have access to personal armouries that make Space Marine chapters gaze on in envy. They are creatures of unrivalled cunning and cruelty, sadists who have been honing their craft since the fall as if their very soul depends upon causing the most exquisite of agonies to lesser beings, because it literally does. They should not be limited to 1 gun, 2 pistols and three melee options. And they sure as hell should not be stuck with the same armour as the rank and file! Even if every shot bounces off their nigh invulnerable personal forcefield, the fact is that having better armour than your lessers is required as a constant visual reminder that you are superior to them!


At least he has a nice little cape.
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 23:44

Quote :

At least he has a nice little cape.


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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Sat Jul 29 2017, 01:27

I've been highly amused at reading this thread, and it's led me to realize that peoples' understanding of what an Archon is and what the Dark Eldar are... are very, very different.

In one corner, we have "They're somewhere between Skaven and Starscream, salivating at a chance to shoot themselves in the foot by backstabbing everyone indiscriminately at the drop of a hat. Of course the archon isn't gonna give a meaningful buff, he doesn't trust anyone in his army and none of them trust him! And of course he's not that much better than his troops, he probably stabbed the last archon a week ago!"

And in the other corner, we have "They are ultra-logical high-functioning sociopaths living in Space Galt's Gulch, they will trust or backstab to exactly the extent that it gives them the most short and long term advantage. When out on a raid, they are a perfect, cohesive, organized fighting force - every single man hand-picked by an ancient evil more calculating and cruelly clever than any Imperial commander. The archon's single-handedly killed more foes than some Space Marine chapters, and has a personal armory that would be the envy of most standing armies!"

Methinks the problem, fluff-wise, seems to be a lot of people talking past each other.
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Sat Jul 29 2017, 01:32

@mynamelegend wrote:
I've been highly amused at reading this thread, and it's led me to realize that peoples' understanding of what an Archon is and what the Dark Eldar are... are very, very different.

In one corner, we have "They're somewhere between Skaven and Starscream, salivating at a chance to shoot themselves in the foot by backstabbing everyone indiscriminately at the drop of a hat. Of course the archon isn't gonna give a meaningful buff, he doesn't trust anyone in his army and none of them trust him! And of course he's not that much better than his troops, he probably stabbed the last archon a week ago!"

And in the other corner, we have "They are ultra-logical high-functioning sociopaths living in Space Galt's Gulch, they will trust or backstab to exactly the extent that it gives them the most short and long term advantage. When out on a raid, they are a perfect, cohesive, organized fighting force - every single man hand-picked by an ancient evil more calculating and cruelly clever than any Imperial commander. The archon's single-handedly killed more foes than some Space Marine chapters, and has a personal armory that would be the envy of most standing armies!"

Methinks the problem, fluff-wise, seems to be a lot of people talking past each other.

While both can make good bad-guys, we already have the former as a playable faction in the form of the Orks. We should try to take the latter niche.

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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Sat Jul 29 2017, 02:31

It's time for a bit of a vent, because I'm not sure where this idea that Archons are incompetent and incapable of meaningful leadership, and that Raids are somehow are just another ground for the incessant betrayals.

Below are thirteen quotes from two different books on this topic, I hope it will allow us to introduce some evidence into this discussion, as well as allow me to get out some of my frustrations about the shortcomings of one of my favorite elements of the Dark Eldar.

Quote :
"The strike forces of the Dark Eldar, despite consisting of treacherous and scheming murderers, work like we'll tuned machines upon the battlefield."

A Dark Eldar Raid is like a school project with assigned groups. You loathe every single one of your allies with a fanatic passion...but to refuse to work with them would mean your own demise.

Quote :
"Raids are planned in meticulous detail by Archons..."

Raids are a gigantic bloody play. Every possibility, every outcome, every sword swing and trigger pull has been accounted for. The combatants have been hand picked, ruthless, capable, and the closest thing to unwavering loyalty the Archons can find. To be a part of a raid is to know your place. It is a way to reap honor, and thus garner reputation, but it only works if you play your part, or you might find yourself dragged into your own shadow by a Mandrake.

Quote :
"Only the most capable are recruited...to fail in an invasion's execution is to bring an entire Kabal that much closer to its downfall."

Betrayal and backstabbing is a way of life for the True Kin. But it is only for advancement. Every Dark Eldar is in a desperate climb to the top of the hierarchy of society, but such a goal can only exist within an organized power structure. To be a part of a collapsing Kabal is to invite death upon yourself. Even if you manage to be accepted into another, you will have to start your opportunistic climb all over again. Extraordinarily few Dark Eldar would risk such on a Raid.

Quote :
"Working in concert ensures...that the maximum number of victims can be taken back to Commorragh."

Power is not only about reputation, physical wealth is another need that must be appeased. To disobey a superior's command would be to invite a pay cut, to say the least, and would cut into the stability of the Kabal as a whole.

Quote :
"Vendettas are revisited only once captives are divided, for above all the Dark City requires a steady intake of fresh souls."

Again, primal needs must be sated before politicking can continue. To set aside differences is a necessity, and one can hardly slaughter their superior if they are rotting from the inside out from a lack of agony.

Now we move into discussions about the Archons themselves. They are paranoid in the extreme, true, but one cannot lead a Kabal without the brain power to at least point the equally ravenous band of murderers under you in the right direction.

Quote :
"They sit at the picnic all of the pyramid, the apex of the hierarchy that controls their twighlight domain."

Quote :
"Each wields influence enough to collapse portions of realspace, stall an Imperial Crusade, or steal away the populations of entire planets.

A determined Archon can halt an entire Imperial Crusade, and envelope entire systems into a life of horrific torture. But God forbid that a reputation like that actually does something to the enemy.

Quote :
"...A Kabal's overlord is a terrifying opponent in battle, he has attained his lofty heights not merely through prowess in the arts of war or the brute suppression of the weak.."

An Archon makes Stalin look sane from their desire for control. Naturally, this amounts to a whopping +1 leadership to a unit that practically kills itself once it's out of its transport.

Quote :
"His mind is as labyrinthine as the darkest reaches of the Webway."

Yet he can't apply himself to fit any particular role in a list

Quote :
"...Archons have an uncanny ability to predict the schemes of others, and take a cold delight in turning the traps laid out before them on their heads."

I swear this is like Tormentor Helms. They are constantly mentioned in the fluff, but got lost in transition to the rules.

Quote :
"Their strategies stretch across the millenia, wheels turning within wheels as centuries old ploys finally come to fruition."

Machinations thwarted so cruelty by three Genestealers.

Quote :
"When going to war an Archon visits his weapon museums, savoring the process of selection as he chooses between the most arcane and lethal of all technologies of Commorragh..."

Of course, the pinnicles of his collection are standard Kabalite Armor, a whip available to just about every unit in the army, and a sword possessed by every race evolved beyond a peanut.


Quote :
"Their might has not easily been won...It is savage and unforgiving, and only those possessed of true genius survive it long enough to claw their way to the top."

This one is from our Seventh Edition Codex, and if even this piece of literary garbage can highlight the brutal intellect of Archons, I'm not sure what else to tell you.
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Sat Jul 29 2017, 02:49

As the one who started this argument I feel I should respond, mostly to aurum.

My problem with the archon is that whereas a great deal (not all) of the other HQ options in the game, especially those who represent the 'generic' leaders of their race fulfil both a useful combat role (which the archon does with the unique 2+ invulnerable and decent to good combat stats) but also received a synergistic ability which is both characterful and useful. In my opinion this has gone a good way towards addressing the problem with generic leaders that has been in the game for years : there's always been something more specialised and useful and/or cheaper to spend the points on. As such the likes of company commanders have long been ignored in favour of librarians and chaplains and the like.

I was just a little disappointed to see that the archons buffing ability is of dubious usefulness and isn't particularly characterful. There are plenty of sneaky dark eldar like things he could have done.

That's all Smile
Two assides:

1, I think out other generic hqs are actually good examples of what I want from HQ choices, characterful combat ability and characterful useful buff.

2. I'm really not fond of the new archon model. I'm going to give mine some serious reposing. It's a shame ad I loved the old model.
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Sat Jul 29 2017, 05:09

@ZealousJ wrote:
As the one who started this argument I feel I should respond, mostly to aurum.

My problem with the archon is that whereas a great deal (not all) of the other HQ options in the game, especially those who represent the 'generic' leaders of their race fulfil both a useful combat role (which the archon does with the unique 2+ invulnerable and decent to good combat stats) but also received a synergistic ability which is both characterful and useful. In my opinion this has gone a good way towards addressing the problem with generic leaders that has been in the game for years : there's always been something more specialised and useful and/or cheaper to spend the points on. As such the likes of company commanders have long been ignored in favour of librarians and chaplains and the like.

I was just a little disappointed to see that the archons buffing ability is of dubious usefulness and isn't particularly characterful. There are plenty of sneaky dark eldar like things he could have done.

That's all Smile
Two assides:

1, I think out other generic hqs are actually good examples of what I want from HQ choices, characterful combat ability and characterful useful buff.

2. I'm really not fond of the new archon model. I'm going to give mine some serious reposing. It's a shame ad I loved the old model.


Cough cough Chaos Lords... Thats one of the best examples, for cheap, effective and customizable, something we need in out HQ's

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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Sat Jul 29 2017, 05:52

Thankyou BaconPope for providing some actual evidence.

Its crystal clear if you've read the codices.
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Sat Jul 29 2017, 06:01

@FuelDrop wrote:
@mynamelegend wrote:
I've been highly amused at reading this thread, and it's led me to realize that peoples' understanding of what an Archon is and what the Dark Eldar are... are very, very different.

In one corner, we have "They're somewhere between Skaven and Starscream, salivating at a chance to shoot themselves in the foot by backstabbing everyone indiscriminately at the drop of a hat. Of course the archon isn't gonna give a meaningful buff, he doesn't trust anyone in his army and none of them trust him! And of course he's not that much better than his troops, he probably stabbed the last archon a week ago!"

And in the other corner, we have "They are ultra-logical high-functioning sociopaths living in Space Galt's Gulch, they will trust or backstab to exactly the extent that it gives them the most short and long term advantage. When out on a raid, they are a perfect, cohesive, organized fighting force - every single man hand-picked by an ancient evil more calculating and cruelly clever than any Imperial commander. The archon's single-handedly killed more foes than some Space Marine chapters, and has a personal armory that would be the envy of most standing armies!"

Methinks the problem, fluff-wise, seems to be a lot of people talking past each other.

While both can make good bad-guys, we already have the former as a playable faction in the form of the Orks. We should try to take the latter niche.

@TheBaconPope - Really? Should we start quoting various codices and debating how the stuff there is more like marketing than W40K reality? I do take my views more from the books and stories than from the dex as the characters and life is described in much greater detail. Can you honestly say that those main protagonists of the books save for Vect and Malys are anything like even a few of your quotes?

@FuelDrop - While this is true, after reading the books I cannot see say Yllithian as the supergenius tactician. He just lays out a plan framework and tell his dudes "go and do it somehow". He risks everything on a tiny tiny chance and trusts people with stuff that sometimes a truly loyal person would not do. Half of the events of the books he just tries to mitigate the damage done to his plans by his lack of planning. Same goes for Xelian, Malixian and the others. 99.9% of Archons are not evil supergeniuses. They are overbearing narcistic dudes with some flashy stuff. Vect and Malys? Thats completely different. Those are the HQs you are talking of. They are the ones who's hand you would recognize at their raids' planning. So I believe (and want) that if we get those two characters, their abilities will reflect that they are in fact ancient supergeniuses. But our generic HQs are just right.

@mynamelegend - It is amusing isn't it? In a good way. I am quite enjoying it. I may not agree with some of the others, but it is an interesting discussion as it never occured to me that the players' views might be this different. You are absolutely correct. My view of them is without any attempt of making them cool as a race. They went overboard with everything including their minds. And I do love them like that. While CWE are as people locked in purposefuly prolonged dying, DE are in a state of absolute living. The former are so afraid of hell that they agreed on doing nothing but yoga, teaparties, health diets and meditations with occasional winetasting with cheese. The latter are so afraid of hell that they started to take other lives to make theirs a hell of a bang! There are only very very few exceptional individuals who most probably have more tricks up their sleeves regarding protecting their souls' departure than just "sucking pain, so I don't look plain". And thats where my arguments are coming from.

So yea. Give us Vect or Malys as force multipliers and buffers. Let the generics be cheap and able to take some interesting gear.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Sat Jul 29 2017, 06:18

How do you climb to the apex of the DE power pyramid ie. become an archon, and stay there for longer than 5 seconds if you are not an evil supergenius?
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Sat Jul 29 2017, 10:54

@Painjunky wrote:
How do you climb to the apex of the DE power pyramid ie. become an archon, and stay there for longer than 5 seconds if you are not an evil supergenius?
The Archon is probably blackmailing half of his kabal anyway. It is dangerous indeed to betray someone that has showed many times that he can destroy your life in the flick of an eye.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Sat Jul 29 2017, 12:13

If he's blackmailing half his kabal and is still breathing I'd say that qualifies him as an evil supergenius! Smile
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Sat Jul 29 2017, 13:06

@aurynn wrote:
@FuelDrop wrote:
@mynamelegend wrote:
I've been highly amused at reading this thread, and it's led me to realize that peoples' understanding of what an Archon is and what the Dark Eldar are... are very, very different.

In one corner, we have "They're somewhere between Skaven and Starscream, salivating at a chance to shoot themselves in the foot by backstabbing everyone indiscriminately at the drop of a hat. Of course the archon isn't gonna give a meaningful buff, he doesn't trust anyone in his army and none of them trust him! And of course he's not that much better than his troops, he probably stabbed the last archon a week ago!"

And in the other corner, we have "They are ultra-logical high-functioning sociopaths living in Space Galt's Gulch, they will trust or backstab to exactly the extent that it gives them the most short and long term advantage. When out on a raid, they are a perfect, cohesive, organized fighting force - every single man hand-picked by an ancient evil more calculating and cruelly clever than any Imperial commander. The archon's single-handedly killed more foes than some Space Marine chapters, and has a personal armory that would be the envy of most standing armies!"

Methinks the problem, fluff-wise, seems to be a lot of people talking past each other.

While both can make good bad-guys, we already have the former as a playable faction in the form of the Orks. We should try to take the latter niche.

@TheBaconPope - Really? Should we start quoting various codices and debating how the stuff there is more like marketing than W40K reality? I do take my views more from the books and stories than from the dex as the characters and life is described in much greater detail. Can you honestly say that those main protagonists of the books save for Vect and Malys are anything like even a few of your quotes?

@FuelDrop - While this is true, after reading the books I cannot see say Yllithian as the supergenius tactician. He just lays out a plan framework and tell his dudes "go and do it somehow". He risks everything on a tiny tiny chance and trusts people with stuff that sometimes a truly loyal person would not do. Half of the events of the books he just tries to mitigate the damage done to his plans by his lack of planning. Same goes for Xelian, Malixian and the others. 99.9% of Archons are not evil supergeniuses. They are overbearing narcistic dudes with some flashy stuff. Vect and Malys? Thats completely different. Those are the HQs you are talking of. They are the ones who's hand you would recognize at their raids' planning. So I believe (and want) that if we get those two characters, their abilities will reflect that they are in fact ancient supergeniuses. But our generic HQs are just right.

@mynamelegend - It is amusing isn't it? In a good way. I am quite enjoying it. I may not agree with some of the others, but it is an interesting discussion as it never occured to me that the players' views might be this different. You are absolutely correct. My view of them is without any attempt of making them cool as a race. They went overboard with everything including their minds. And I do love them like that. While CWE are as people locked in purposefuly prolonged dying, DE are in a state of absolute living. The former are so afraid of hell that they agreed on doing nothing but yoga, teaparties, health diets and meditations with occasional winetasting with cheese. The latter are so afraid of hell that they started to take other lives to make theirs a hell of a bang! There are only very very few exceptional individuals who most probably have more tricks up their sleeves regarding protecting their souls' departure than just "sucking pain, so I don't look plain". And thats where my arguments are coming from.

So yea. Give us Vect or Malys as force multipliers and buffers. Let the generics be cheap and able to take some interesting gear.
All this proves is what most people already know, that Black Library writers can be of seriously suspect quality, especially when not writing about space marines.

The way you see Dark Eldar society, ruled by weak incompetents getting knocked off their perch every other week, just doesn't work when applying the most basic of scrutiny.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Sat Jul 29 2017, 14:06

Has C.S.Goto been allowed to write again? This sounds like his doing...

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Sat Jul 29 2017, 14:18

@Mppqlmd wrote:
- Insert comment ranting about the absence of Baron S., options for Wings, bikes, skyboards, the fact that all our buffs (save for Haemy) are terrible, the fact that Drazhar doesn't buff his Incubi at all, the fact that the best option we have is a 30 points token HQ from CW (because Lhaemaean, our only viable HQ, has become an elite choice), the fact that the detachment system wants you to take loads of HQs but our army is designed to make it useless to have more than 1 (or 0, actually). Then proceed to turn this thread into the "codex will solve it all" wishlisting, slowly evolving into fan-made profiles for non-official special HQs that are super cool, but will never exist.

You take all the fun out of it for me. Wink

@Vanguard wrote:
I mean tactical discussion aside, how do you guys feel about the standard model?

I loved the one from 5th but really hate the current one. The head looks off (I think a helmet would have been much better), the pose is boring and his cape looks like he's wearing a quilt.


Anyway, on the subject of force-multiplier abilities: one I saw suggested by Scrz in a different thread was that, rather than having an aura, the Archon could let you choose one unit at the beginning of the game to receive a permanent buff. It could be Poison 3+ or rerolls to-hit or to-wound or somesuch. I think the idea was that this was the Archon giving better weapons or such to one of his favoured units (presumably, he'd also receive the buff). Mechanically, this would also allow the unit to benefit from the buff even if it (or the Archon) was in a transport.


Another possibility would be a Commissar-like ability, whereby the Archon executes a man for failing, inspiring the remainder to fight harder.

e.g. MEDIOCRE! "If 2 or more models in a unit that is within 6" of an Archon roll 1s to hit, you may remove one of those models as a casualty. If you do, after resolving the unit's attacks that unit may immediately attack again (if this occurred in the shooting phase, the unit shoots again, if it occurred in the fight phase, the unit fights again). A unit can never gain more than one additional attack each turn as a result of this ability."

Not sure if it would be any good, I just wanted an excuse to call something MEDIOCRE!. Razz
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