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 How does everyone feel about the Archon?

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ZealousJ
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PostSubject: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Thu Jul 27 2017, 22:44

Another daft question to mark my joining of the forums.
What's is everyone doing with their archon?
I've been generally really impressed with the state of HQ choices in 8th ed. In the past there often wasn't much reason to take most but now many combine combat potential with buffing or support abilities. The problem I have with the archon is that his support ability isn't very useful and his equipment choices aren't exactly stellar either. It's particularly obvious when contrasted to the succubus and haemonculus who are both better in combat and have far better buffing abilities.

I really really want to take am archon as they are so characterful and I really like to have a personal avatar on the board when I play.

I've even considered making my 'Archon' a succubus who has come to rule a kabal but that just doesn't sit well.

Someone please tell me I'm selling him short.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Thu Jul 27 2017, 22:48

I'm using him as a cheap HQ and a gun Plattform. It's fine by me, given that I am not really interested in close combat anyway. I'm playing a Kabal so it's fine.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Thu Jul 27 2017, 22:55

- Insert comment ranting about the absence of Baron S., options for Wings, bikes, skyboards, the fact that all our buffs (save for Haemy) are terrible, the fact that Drazhar doesn't buff his Incubi at all, the fact that the best option we have is a 30 points token HQ from CW (because Lhaemaean, our only viable HQ, has become an elite choice), the fact that the detachment system wants you to take loads of HQs but our army is designed to make it useless to have more than 1 (or 0, actually). Then proceed to turn this thread into the "codex will solve it all" wishlisting, slowly evolving into fan-made profiles for non-official special HQs that are super cool, but will never exist. -

Seriously, there is nothing good to say about our HQs. We have to take some, so we do it, and Archon is the cheapest way so it's the best (just like Lhaemaean was before), but it's a stretch to call him good or even viable.
The first part of the post is a joke not meant to insult any member of this forum, of course Smile
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AshCrow
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Thu Jul 27 2017, 22:57

Pretty much what Cptmetal said. He's a tanky gun platform. Give him a blaster and an agonizer (just in case for combat) and stick him in a transport and go pew pew some things.
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Thu Jul 27 2017, 23:04

My Archon killed Kayvaan Shrike on Monday.
With Blast Pistol and Husk Blade(which i'm a bit annoyed with as it doesn't do mortal wounds, i have to admit).
Really love the Shadow field.
It even survives mortal wounds as of current FAQ.
We just play for fun though.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Thu Jul 27 2017, 23:29

I don't love him, but he is an ok support HQ. Not via buffs, but for a little shooting and combat support.
I give him either an Agoniser or Huskblade for cc, a blaster and PGL. For a cheap HQ I can't complain.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Thu Jul 27 2017, 23:33

I've had success with the archons I've used, I tend to take 2 for a battalion detachment give them a blast pistol, pgl and an agonizer though I've been considering just keeping the huskblade. One stands in the back field on an objective and the other one runs up with the army to tie up an enemy tank or character that strayed to far forward. Played 10 games so far and not once has an archon died. But that is just my experience with them.
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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Thu Jul 27 2017, 23:53

Doesn't he combo well with the Tantalus?
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Groan
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 00:04

I simply use him as an overwatch meat-shield.
Until he gets his old toys back, I have no unique role for him.
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Morgrim
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 02:11

I'm taking Drazhar instead with a boat load of incubi. The archon is a bit underwhelming at the moment....this may change with a codex whenever that drops.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 06:33

@Mppqlmd wrote:
- Insert comment ranting about the absence of Baron S., options for Wings, bikes, skyboards, the fact that all our buffs (save for Haemy) are terrible, the fact that Drazhar doesn't buff his Incubi at all, the fact that the best option we have is a 30 points token HQ from CW (because Lhaemaean, our only viable HQ, has become an elite choice), the fact that the detachment system wants you to take loads of HQs but our army is designed to make it useless to have more than 1 (or 0, actually). Then proceed to turn this thread into the "codex will solve it all" wishlisting, slowly evolving into fan-made profiles for non-official special HQs that are super cool, but will never exist. -

Seriously, there is nothing good to say about our HQs. We have to take some, so we do it, and Archon is the cheapest way so it's the best (just like Lhaemaean was before), but it's a stretch to call him good or even viable.
The first part of the post is a joke not meant to insult any member of this forum, of course Smile

I think the first part of the post is less joke and more "considered hypothesis".

On that note; "Where did all our characters go?"

But yeah.

Our HQ's suck.

They define the term "tax" in context of this game.

The only even SLIGHTLY viable one is the Haemi/ Rakarth.  Being our only means of anti-psyker (other than, you know, splinter fire and Darklight) and having the only buff that makes a considerable difference to the units it applies to puts them head and shoulders above the rest of our book, and even then, they pale in comparison to a Commisar's usefulness and versatility.

Quite a while back, a member of our lovely forum made a post on their own blog discussing the issues with our army in 7th ed.

This mostly boiled down to an utterly abysmal lack of internal synergies.

Nothing properly complemented each other, there were no one-two combos. Where a Commisar can clearly generate better performance from an Imperial Guard list, any given Dark Eldar unit could, at best, just sort of operate alongside something else and output less-than-mediocre results.

It's why so many of our solutions boiled down to "take X from Craftworld Eldar/ Eldar Harlequins as an ally". It's why the Lhamaen was recognised as our best HQ choice. It's why the Haemonculus Covens expansion was recognised as a shining light in dark times.

We have the same problem again, and unless our Codex somehow, miraculously, addresses these issues, our HQ's will never have a useful place on the tabletop and the most efficient Dark Eldar list will always include a Warlock.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 11:09

Just because they do not cost 150 pts and do not have abilities of SM snowflakes it does not mean they suck. They most certainly don't. We are not marines! Face it already! And gods forbid they start making us into lithe SM.
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 12:18

@aurynn wrote:
Just because they do not cost 150 pts and do not have abilities of SM snowflakes it does not mean they suck. They most certainly don't. We are not marines! Face it already! And gods forbid they start making us into lithe SM.
Nor is anyone asking them to be space marines, but DE is pretty much the only army where our HQ's have virtually no synergy with anything else in the army.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 12:37

And that differs from the fluff how? IMO that is how it is supposed to be. We are selfish race to the extreme. Our leaders do not care about their troops. Succubus has enough synergy as is, so does Archon. He leads through fear, so as long as he holds, the troops hold. Succubi lead through example, so they get a reroll. I don't get why everybody keeps wishing to have same abilities as other armies. Srsly... bugs me to no end. Forgive me for that, but it does.

Doesn't anybody see the value of being maybe only army without any dependency on our HQs? Ppl scream that we lost flair, but there it is! We have no Roboute, we have no brotherhood between our dudes. We are each for oneself. That is one thing I want to keep. Otherwise we are just emo Eldar.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 12:50

@aurynn wrote:
And that differs from the fluff how? IMO that is how it is supposed to be. We are selfish race to the extreme. Our leaders do not care about their troops. Succubus has enough synergy as is, so does Archon. He leads through fear, so as long as he holds, the troops hold. Succubi lead through example, so they get a reroll. I don't get why everybody keeps wishing to have same abilities as other armies. Srsly... bugs me to no end. Forgive me for that, but it does.

Doesn't anybody see the value of being maybe only army without any dependency on our HQs? Ppl scream that we lost flair, but there it is! We have no Roboute, we have no brotherhood between our dudes. We are each for oneself. That is one thing I want to keep. Otherwise we are just emo Eldar.

Except we are discussing a game in which there is supposed to be balance between factions. If every other army has powerful synergy between their HQ's and other units and we do not then that is simply pushing us back to the bottom of the pile unless our other forces are suitably powerful that they do not need that synergy. And we've seen little evidence of this!

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 12:58

Only DE have best tourney record in as far as I can remember (and not due to Flocks really)... So yea... lets push us further to the top! Oh wait... thats not balance...

But honestly, I believe when the Dex hits, our HQs will have the option to buy items to grant them that synergy. As Armour of Misery did. Why would I want one prescribed ability instead of several options? We have a very cheap HQ that is far from useless, just waiting to be more flexible than anything else...
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 13:35

I mean tactical discussion aside, how do you guys feel about the standard model?

I hate the sucker. If I get an archon sometime there'll be an alternative model for sure (either the old model or a conversion). I'm taking a succubus HQ partially for that reason...also partially for fun and cool-points.
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 13:47

@aurynn wrote:
Only DE have best tourney record in as far as I can remember (and not due to Flocks really)... So yea... lets push us further to the top! Oh wait... thats not balance...

But honestly, I believe when the Dex hits, our HQs will have the option to buy items to grant them that synergy. As Armour of Misery did. Why would I want one prescribed ability instead of several options? We have a very cheap HQ that is far from useless, just waiting to be more flexible than anything else...

Tournament results are all but meaningless at this stage. The game's been out less than 2 months. Plus we're going to see pretty much every major tournament playing, essentially, a different game as there will be codexes released between tournaments that will likely shift the meta with each release.

And why the hell should we have to buy items to create synergy that every other army gets for free? I honestly don't understand this idea that we cannot have anything that anybody, or indeed everybody else has.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 14:29

And I don't get why we should be the same as the others. Just because they have it? Forgive me, but thats envy. Independence on HQs is good. If I wanted to have rerolls I'd play SM or Eldar. For me, there is no fluff reason for any special synergy.

I can imagine a Captain inspiring or his company into better acts of war.

I cannot imagine our HQs inspiring anyone to anything, nor can I imagine our troops to actually care... I know Archons should be scheming masterminds, but hey... thats why they are Archons and not Trueborn or Dracons.

If someone wants a synergic army, there are SM, Eldar and others. If you want nasty, backstabbing, selfish, hedonistic dudes, thats DE. It is my deep conviction that these guys are not SUPPOSED to have synergy and any attempts or wishes for those are directly in conflict with the fluff.

Archon has 2++ and fluffy Aura for very reasonable points and good options. (BTW that 2++ has a very good synergy). Succy can wreck face if pointed at the right target, but is not invincible... for the cost of two termies AND has synergy with her wyches. What more do you want? A 150pts HQ that has 3+ 4++, can kill stuff and has aura of rerolls?
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 14:48

Quote :
What more do you want?
I respectfully disagree. Yes, it is nice that we can have cheap HQs. But right now, our HQs lack any synergy at all. With transport capacities and minimum squad sizes being upped to 5, you can't have any HQ tag along with units in Venoms...unless you're willing to burn a CP for understrength units. You really can't put them in Raiders, as doing so makes you miss out on special weapons that most of the time are worth more than the HQ itself.

I like that we have Cheap HQ options, I do..but other armies have that too. I just want the ability for my HQs to have the option to be so much more, because at the moment, the biggest use I have for my Archons is Deepstrike Area Denial, and camping on backfield objectives.

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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 14:55

Either make our HQs grant strategic buffs from being master schemers potentially older than the Imperium, or make them insanely good at their roles, or make them cheap.

Yes the dark eldar are selfish backstabbers, but they bring their A game to raids. Archons should grant strategic buffs such as boosting seize the initiative, night fighting ect, the Succubus should be a terrifying death machine in melee who can be kitted to hunt monsters, characters, or entire squads of lesser foes, and the Haemi should be horror incarnate, rebuilding his walking nightmares on the field faster than you can gun them down and giggling insanely when you shoot the bastard with an anti tank gun and he JUST. WON'T. DIE!

Side bitch. The Archon should have access to literally every weapon in the codex, along with Ghostplate Armour. His wargear list should be unrivaled, and include relics from before the fall. Archons have access to personal armouries that make Space Marine chapters gaze on in envy. They are creatures of unrivalled cunning and cruelty, sadists who have been honing their craft since the fall as if their very soul depends upon causing the most exquisite of agonies to lesser beings, because it literally does. They should not be limited to 1 gun, 2 pistols and three melee options. And they sure as hell should not be stuck with the same armour as the rank and file! Even if every shot bounces off their nigh invulnerable personal forcefield, the fact is that having better armour than your lessers is required as a constant visual reminder that you are superior to them!


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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 14:55

@aurynn wrote:
And I don't get why we should be the same as the others. Just because they have it? Forgive me, but thats envy. Independence on HQs is good. If I wanted to have rerolls I'd play SM or Eldar. For me, there is no fluff reason for any special synergy.

I can imagine a Captain inspiring or his company into better acts of war.

I cannot imagine our HQs inspiring anyone to anything, nor can I imagine our troops to actually care... I know Archons should be scheming masterminds, but hey... thats why they are Archons and not Trueborn or Dracons.

If someone wants a synergic army, there are SM, Eldar and others. If you want nasty, backstabbing, selfish, hedonistic dudes, thats DE. It is my deep conviction that these guys are not SUPPOSED to have synergy and any attempts or wishes for those are directly in conflict with the fluff.

Archon has 2++ and fluffy Aura for very reasonable points and good options. (BTW that 2++ has a very good synergy). Succy can wreck face if pointed at the right target, but is not invincible... for the cost of two termies AND has synergy with her wyches. What more do you want? A 150pts HQ that has 3+ 4++, can kill stuff and has aura of rerolls?

Our Archons do not inspire their troops with acts of bravery. They intimidate their troops with promises of dire vengeance for failing to carry out the Archon's wishes. There's your fluff justification for a buff that actually has a reasonable in game effect as opposed to the crap that our Archons have.

There are lots of options for buffs that our HQs can give out. Some of them might even be the same as something that an HQ in another of the many 40K factions have and you're pretty much the only person I've seen anywhere that has a problem with that. I don't see anyone complaining that Rites of Battle is stepping on the toes of Eldar Autarchs as it's exactly the same rule as their Path of Command ability. So why should we be prohibited from having an ability that, for example, mirrored Cawl's self-repair rule but for an Haemonculus?

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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 15:11

Our leaders don't just inspire through fear.  They also achieve greater results from their troops through superior planning.  Their vast intellects allow them to apply their forces in ways that maximize their efficiency better than those troops could acting on their own recognizance.

I definitely expect force multipliers from my HQs.
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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 15:17

Quote:"If someone wants a synergic army, there are SM, Eldar and others. If you want nasty, backstabbing, selfish, hedonistic dudes, thats DE. It is my deep conviction that these guys are not SUPPOSED to have synergy and any attempts or wishes for those are directly in conflict with the fluff."

Question: have you ever read your codexes? The part where the Dark Eldar, unlike Chaos and Orks, put aside their differences when on a raid to work together and feed on as much suffering as possible? About how each warrior is hand picked for the raid? About how such a raid is an incredible rush to the dark eldar, who are not going to screw it up. You know why? Because if you mess up the raid for everyone by being a selfish dick and not following the plan then your sorry ass will be left in real space, with no protection from the unending hunger of She-Who-Thirsts.

Dark Eldar should work together like a beautiful, well oiled machine. They have a very limited window to have their fun and they know it, and no-one wants to screw it up or they will not be invited to the next raid. Sure, once the actual threats are neutralized they get to cut loose and have fun, but while there is a viable fighting force in their way the cabal will out think, out maneuver and out fight the foe. The battle will take place on ground of their choosing, at a time of their choosing. The cabals understand that they are on the same team, and while all bets are off once the slaves have been plundered, you are a fool if you consider a force of dark eldar on the field to be anything less than inhumanly diciplined and painstakingly coordinated.

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PostSubject: Re: How does everyone feel about the Archon?    Fri Jul 28 2017, 15:30

I do not care much if we have synnergy or not for our HQ. Although I agree with the post from fueldrop, in lore we work very well together only when when there is no way it could backfire do we backstab everyone including each other. But what I do mind is that our HQ right now feels like a tax. Having HQ that buffs the units around them is a nice way to make it feel mroe usefull. But it could also be something related to planning (having te option to let one player deploy 2-3 units at once during deployment thus either gaining deployment or first turn advantage).
The main problem is that our HQ has no synnergy and is not good enough to stand on it's own. I would rather have a buff but if we make it an combat/shooting monser that would also be fine. But right now he has no job. A lot of people suggest to treat him like an expensive kabalite with a blaster.

If I now have the choice between anoher unit of kabalites or an archon everyone will go for the kabalites. If the Archon gets some nice toys in the codex that would ofset a large part of the problem, except it will probably mean we will like one of them and still our other HQ slots will be taxes. So give the guy a function in the list. Make him do something that either no one else can do or that he actually does as well or in a different way then others.

Right now the only option to make him slightly better is by having a unit of expensive court with him. Which is fine if he was optional. But he is nearly a must since you need to have multiple HQ in matched play, and the court is something that I always considered the rare barely seen in an "average" army options. Sure some archn might always have the strange aliens with him, but most archons will have trueborn/kabalites/incubi with him instead. So right now the archon feels like a waste.
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