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 Is there any reason to take a pain engine?

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Tue Aug 08 2017, 06:30

I might be mistaken (I do not own any Taloi), but why is it not a threat before turn 3?
You can move 8, so after 2 turns you should have a 16+3d6 (average around 28 because of reroll charge). To me this seems quite ok, similar to hormagaunts and genestealers who are the "fast" strike troops from the tyranids.
In half the maps the distance between the two of you is less then 24, so unless he deploys very far back you should be able to reach his front lines in turn 2? Well maybe I play to much assault armies and because of that I often see combat in turn 1 or 2.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Tue Aug 08 2017, 06:58

Quote :
To me this seems quite ok, similar to hormagaunts and genestealers who are the "fast" strike troops from the tyranids.

The key difference being those examples will utterly obliterate most things they're tossed at. (I speak from experience, Purestrains have charged my Venoms perhaps eight times, and I've survived the first round of combat exactly once.)

The Talos, well...he absorbs bullets. In comparison with the rest of the army, his offensive potential is noticeably lacking, and when compared to the equivalents in other armies...well, he's about as laughably stupid as his old model. (Shots fired, I'm aware.)

The key factor is on Turn 3, he will statistically be getting another hit, which does just enough to elevate him to "questionably below average" status.

The fact of the matter is that his movement is eclipsed by just about every other assault unit in our army (provided we include transports), and the fact that at nearly 130 points, it's a exponentially more worthwhile investment to just cough up another 25 and buy another Ravager.

Our army is really based on a simple statement: Strike hard, strike fast. And when compared to the rest of the index, the Talos does neither.

I don't want to sound overly negative here, I love the Talos. I love its fluff, I love it's model, and I love maniacally cackling as I move them up the table. But in several threads, I've set the thing up against a good portion of our other units, both in offensive potential, as well as defensive statistics. And from what I've found, the one thing that the Talos can do is absorb small arms.

I pray that the Codex fixes this, but as someone who has run the numbers on this, I can say that it's truly and unequivocally a piece of junk.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Tue Aug 08 2017, 07:40

|Meavar wrote:
I might be mistaken (I do not own any Taloi), but why is it not a threat before turn 3?
You can move 8, so after 2 turns you should have a 16+3d6 (average around 28 because of reroll charge). To me this seems quite ok, similar to hormagaunts and genestealers who are the "fast" strike troops from the tyranids.
In half the maps the distance between the two of you is less then 24, so unless he deploys very far back you should be able to reach his front lines in turn 2? Well maybe I play to much assault armies and because of that I often see combat in turn 1 or 2.

Yep. In theory, against a sleeping or a dead player, you could charge a Talos turn 2.
In practice, there are 2 scenarios :
- You play vs a CC army : your talos will reach CC alright, then get chopped to haggis.
- You play vs a shooting oriented army, or worse, a balanced army : your opponent will move as well.
So consider this : if your talos is in cc at turn 1-2, then your opponent WANTS him in cc with that unit, and you got baited, and there he will either accomplish nothing, or die.

BTW : the gaunts/GS are not considered fast striking troops by tyrannids players. Fast striking troops are : gargoyles, troops deployed in a Trygon Prime (often GS), flyers, Lictors, ... Gaunts actually come into play at turn 3 (unless, again, they face another CC army).

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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Tue Aug 08 2017, 07:55

Mppqlmd wrote:
|Meavar wrote:
I might be mistaken (I do not own any Taloi), but why is it not a threat before turn 3?
You can move 8, so after 2 turns you should have a 16+3d6 (average around 28 because of reroll charge). To me this seems quite ok, similar to hormagaunts and genestealers who are the "fast" strike troops from the tyranids.
In half the maps the distance between the two of you is less then 24, so unless he deploys very far back you should be able to reach his front lines in turn 2? Well maybe I play to much assault armies and because of that I often see combat in turn 1 or 2.

Yep. In theory, against a sleeping or a dead player, you could charge a Talos turn 2.
In practice, there are 2 scenarios :
- You play vs a CC army : your talos will reach CC alright, then get chopped to haggis.
- You play vs a shooting oriented army, or worse, a balanced army : your opponent will move as well.
So consider this : if your talos is in cc at turn 1-2, then your opponent WANTS him in cc with that unit, and you got baited, and there he will either accomplish nothing, or die.

BTW : the gaunts/GS are not considered fast striking troops by tyrannids players. Fast striking troops are : gargoyles, troops deployed in a Trygon Prime (often GS), flyers, Lictors, ... Gaunts actually come into play at turn 3 (unless, again, they face another CC army).

My local tyranid players tend to use gaunts and genestealers for area denial and counterattack, with his heavy shooting units attempting to force the foe to come to him. When he needs aggression he uses a couple of 'fexes and Flyrants to make sure that his advancing forces have some priority targets to get larger numbers of his critters into charge range without being shot up.

I cannot see a Talos really doing well against such a foe, particularly against a well made 'fex.

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URIEN
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Tue Aug 08 2017, 13:46

I ran a 2k army of 8 Talos', 3 Cronos' and 3 Haem's in pre ed'. They were ace and the army was great too play. But what they've done too them now is damned saddening to me. I hardly use them now which is a shame as mine are all unique.

they really do lack the punch in combat they had previously, I would take a Cronos over a Talos now. Which just seems wierd.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Tue Aug 08 2017, 21:46

Yep. The Chronos has great utility, and can be justified in a CC list (i think many played it in the bird spam).

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Tue Aug 08 2017, 23:58

Excuse my ignorance but, What?!?!?

Chronos seem quite terrible in this edition, at least on paper (having never used one). There stat line isn't good, their auras are lack luster. I don't get it.

Please enlighten your dark brethren.

(If that seemed at all agressive I appologise, it is genuine surprise)
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Aug 09 2017, 10:27

The rerolling to wound in melee Aura is very good in my book, if you're fielding a force of, say, Beasts or Coven (or even Cult).
The healing factor is okayish, and can be useful.
Anyway it's better than the Talos that offers nothing at all. A well positionned Chronos can win you the game with his reroll aura.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Aug 09 2017, 12:02

So a talos offers nothing at all because its not a threat and can be ignored till in charge range (which is T2 usually) but a cronus is cool cos it has a short ranged buff that only effects units already in CC?
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Aug 09 2017, 15:01

I've fielded a squad of 3 Cronos' on multiple occasions and by lord Vect do they do some damage. The spirit vortex and syphon are great IMO. I know they lack a good strength but the output between the three is great.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Aug 09 2017, 16:25

Chronoi have utility through force multiplier, that is very scarse in our army, and thus very precious.

Taloi are just a generic unit that has generic melee attacks (yay, AP-1 D2. This doesn't look at all like all our other choices of CC), no special rule and is average in speed.

So yeah, the Chronos is better than the Talos, because the Chronos is unique, and offers something special that is absent from the rest of the codex. The Talos is struggling to make a living between the Hellions, the CF, the Incubi, the Wyches, the Khymeras... and does nothing that can't be found in the other cc units.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Aug 09 2017, 21:35

Not for me but cool let us know how it performs for you.
Experience>theoryhammer.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Thu Aug 10 2017, 07:27

I do not have much experience with the Talos. But let's compare him with the Carnifex.

The carnifexe that I have experience with is the cheap melee variant (around 100 points), so I will just look at melee for now.
It is similar in price, to our Talos (although the ranged weapon will increase it's points)
Against weak things, it is roughly even the carnifex gets more attacks but only at s4 and multiple wounds has little impact. Unfortunately neither option is really great doing roughly 2-3 wounds to orks/ guards
Against big things the differences become more noticable, the talos has a lot more attacks now, gaining +2 attacks because of 2 macro scalpels (never take the ichor injector it is just sucky right now). So effectively the carnifex only has 2.9 hits and the Talos has 4. S will be the sameso for ease let's just say t7. (~1wound and ~1.5) And saves is a large difference again -3 for the carni and -1 for the Talos (0.81 Carni vs 0.66 Talos), the carni deals 3 damage and the talos 2 (2.4wounds carni vs 1.3 Talos) The carni also has a wound more, does not need the aura from the heamy to get t7. But Talos has a 5++ a 6+++ a reroll on charges from turn 2 and a +1 to hit later (which means we end at 1.67 damage) (we have 1 more move, but the carni runs and charges 1 inch further and might deal a mortal wound on the charge)
Thus we end up being a little bit thougher with support but a bit worse base. The main problem is that the carnifex has a better damage output, and even that is considered at the low end.
Conclusion our Talos needs slightly better attack, getting ap -3 and the talos becomes a bit more in line with similar units. Although all of them are slightly expensive for what they do.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Thu Aug 10 2017, 09:29

All good points. The talos clearly needs buffing. Sad

I will still use a couple, and win, just not at tournaments. Same with reavers but lets not go there. Smile


Last edited by Painjunky on Thu Aug 10 2017, 09:36; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Thu Aug 10 2017, 09:36

The carnifexes can be all deployed in one drop, which helps going first. Fantastic special rule.
He can also deal Mortal wounds when charging, IIRC.
He has what the Talos lacks : rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Thu Aug 10 2017, 09:37

And options! A 'fex can be fitted out with a metric ton of biomorphs to give it various roles on the battlefield, both in melee and at range.

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URIEN
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Thu Aug 10 2017, 09:39

I would love to see all the other variants that are talked about, it'd be great!

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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Thu Aug 10 2017, 12:45

Fex is made for shooting, you take 2 MC version of Deathspitters (114pts)
Now you have 6 shots, S7 -1ap

For Melee you only use the Stone Crusher Fex with Bio-Flail (112pts)
The Bio-flail is, One of your attacks made be use for Bio-flail: For each model within 2" you get 1 attack
Against a horde you can get 5-15 attacks including 3 of your claw attacks. on average its something like 9-13 attacks.

I play nids as well, i have something like 15k points of them (but for me DE is so much more fun and i love the fluff)

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