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 Is there any reason to take a pain engine?

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ZealousJ
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PostSubject: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 11:20

Hi all.

I'm a new dark eldar player just getting back into 40k after a few years break from the hobby.

I am planning to make a list that is more or less half kabal and half coven (with some reavers thrown in) as I'm very fond of both of these aspects of the dark eldar.

I was hoping to add a talos to my haemonculus and his wracks but looking at it I can't see much of a reason to take a talos over other options. It seems pretty lacklustre as a firing platform, doesn't seem as tough as some of the other options, and where it's combat potential seems decent to good I worry it'll be a little slow to keep up.
It doesn't seem like an awful choice to me but it does seem to be largely out shined.

Am I missing something? Do the pain engines have a role to play in a mixed force that I'm not seeing?

Any advice would be very welcome.

Cheers

Johnny
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 11:26

Apart from a distraction carnifex... no. He's tough, but not very good at shooting. He's slow, and not even good in CC since he lacks AP. So no, he's really terrible...
He still got 6 attack with 2 dmg each, so i could see him work as an anti tank device, but he needs to catch them, and he will never do that. Against infantry like termies, he lacks the AP. Maybe against something like lychguards ?

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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 12:07

It's quite simple. Every Index has "bad" units. If you take these in your list and the person you're playing with does as well, then you're both going to have fun.

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ZealousJ
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 12:09

@sleepy pillow
Well I'm not exactly super competitive. I'm happy to take something that isn't the top of the pack. I'm just struggling to see a niche for the talos. It seem to be a little confused to me
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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 12:21

There's no niche, that's why it's a bad unit you shouldn't take when you're trying to optimize.

All I want to say is that if you run a talos at something equally bad (same points in banshee's for example) it will most likely perform reasonably.

edit: If you run the talos at 10 termis, 30 Tzaangor's or a razorback+guilliman list then yes you're out of luck

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ZealousJ
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 13:10

It is certainly a pity as they're such characterful models. Here's hoping they'll be addressed when the codex drops
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 15:17

It's not a bad unit per se, simply everything it does something else can do better, it is not specialized. It really needs a better AP, -2 would be enough to make it playable.
Bring a cronos, a Talos and an haemy and make sure to remind to your enemy the abilities of the single units, if you scare him enough they are a good bullet sponge.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 15:49

I've got ten. I'm seriously considering running all of them in a game, just to see where it gets me.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 16:20

Jimsolo wrote:
I've got ten.  I'm seriously considering running all of them in a game, just to see where it gets me.

I also want you to do this!

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 16:24

If you could repair them with an haemonculus that would be nice. I'm consisting something similar with hell brutes.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 16:37

10 Talos = 120poison shots at 18"

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 17:02

Talos aren't actually all that bad, they're a tough bullet sponge as usual and are decent in combat whilst their shooting is best for softening up a target for a charge rather than used to remove units in and of itself. They're also not exactly slow, with an 8" move and re-rolls to advance and charge from turn 2 they can get to the enemy as early as turn 2. They're just not as good as they were last edition and find themselves a little overshadowed by our other options.

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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 17:52

They're bullet sponges for now because people remember the days of yore when they just chewed through anything...

Once the cat's out of the bag that Talos suck good players will just ignore them.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 17:58

I don't think they're bad enough to be ignored.
When they are in CC they can still do their share, just not enough to be an auto pick on any list.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 18:02

colinsherlow wrote:
10 Talos = 120poison shots at 18"
Poison shots that hit on a 4+, mind you.
That means those 120 poison shots from a Talos are equivalent to 90 shots from a Venom.

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Britishgrotesque
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 18:07

True, but I'd like to see the venom do as much damage in close combat too. Talos are all rounder units now, I don't think they waste points, they just aren't our cc specialists,
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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 18:24

All rounder units can perform one or more of their functions adequately. The talos can not. He's a budget dreadnaught that GW forgot to give a low cost to, and as a result is just in a sad place for the time being. For reference he's less survivable than a ravager, and costs about 33% more than a carnifex.
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HaeSuse
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 18:53

I could see them sitting on objectives and challenging the enemy to get close. Or charging some other unit the enemy has sit on an objective, while the rest of your army flanks.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 19:11

Loss of AP, nerfing of the Ichor Injector, loss of S7, need for a Haemy babysitter to get T7, and no significant firepower to speak of makes the Pain Engine unfit for even semi-competitive play. I've had a bit of luck using it as a bullet sponge, but it does nothing that other units can't do better, and more cost effectively.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 21:20

One of the biggest problems I have with the Talos is that I don't know what to use it against. In 7th, it was an all-round death machine that could kill high-save units reliably. It was wasted against GEQ and other monsters could out-perform the Talos in CQC. But that was okay since we had enough poison to deal with MCs and GEQs.

But what is the Talos supposed to kill now with that measly ap value? The D2 suggests that you should use it against TEQ, MC or vehicles but I don't see it bringing enough power and ap to do that job reliably.

The Talos either needs a serious price drop, better ap or T7. Even better would be two out of those three things.

Same applies to the Hellions and their Hellglaives. We are paying for a weapon that will never see its full potential.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 21:22

I felt like Hellions are can openers: meant to swarm vehicles.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 22:17

Quote :
I felt like Hellions are can openers: meant to swarm vehicles.

Without AP, and at a usual S4, they're hardly effective at their job.

Hellions are designed to be a harrassment unit, the Talos a hard hitting TEQ killer, but neither have the damage output to justify their cost.

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 22:21

I see them both as good primaris and bike killers.
Leave the TEQ to the dissies.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 22:25

Talos are not slow and cannot be ignored as you will be in CC T2.

Ive used a unit of 2 talos with a heam and wracks on foot running behind VS SM and crons. They were great in both games. Very Happy
So tough that although I lost 3 talos over the 2 games they tanked so much fire that I did not lose a single skimmer in both games!
Not even close. Not even 1 down to half wounds. My venoms, raiders and ravagers had free reign of the table.
Winning!

I found them to be great in CC.
PfP is excellent.
No damage table, they are tougher than they look.

Board control wins you games.
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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Is there any reason to take a pain engine?    Wed Jul 26 2017, 22:33

At Rapid Fire range it kills one MEQ and in combat it kills a little more than 1.

Why exactly does anyone need to pay attention to it when they see it on the battlefield and know how much of a schmuck unit it is?
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