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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Wed Jul 26 2017, 17:36

@Lyceus wrote:
How does therecent "nerf" to necrotoxin missiles from assault 6 to d6 affect the value of our fliers?

Not that much. I've only used the necrotoxin on lightly armored horde units. Most of the time, I use shatterfield missiles.
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attackdrone
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Wed Jul 26 2017, 17:43

Based on my experiences so far in 8th edition, combined with watching all the Dark Eldar 8th battle reports I can find.

Top Tier Awesome - must-take if you have the model:
- Voidraven Bomber (I rate this higher than the Razorwing due to its ability to better kill Leman Russ Tanks, Land Raiders, and other T8 targets)
- Ravager (slightly less crazy-good now that the invuln is properly ranged-only)
- Venom (-1 to hit them and no degrading profile? Yes please)
- Kabalite Trueborn / Blasterborn (4 Blasters and a Dracon, no upgrades, in a Venom. Dracon dies first)

Good Choices - will almost always pull their weight :
- Haemonculus ("decent" melee HQ. Cheap. Buffs Coven Venoms/Raiders FOR NOW)
- Razorwing Jetfighter
- Kabalite Warriors
- Bloodbrides (Try a 10-person squad of bloodbrides with +1 Attack Drugs, 3 Hydra Gauntlets, and an Agonizer in a Raider. Seriously. Try it)
- Raider (Used as a transport for melee units NOT for Kabalites)
- Incubi (still tear through marines and terminators like a knife through butter. Need proper support to take on formidable foes)
- Clawed Fiends (they legitimately tear through things in melee)
- Scourges (I prefer to kit them out for anti-infantry with Shardcarbines. Dark Lances are an option. Avoid Heat Lances / Haywire)
- Mandrakes (I don't have these models, but many battle reports feature them doing quite well)

Situationally Good - will work well with proper support, or against the correct foe :
- Urien Rakarth (Expensive. Can do well. Hard to kill. I prefer cheaper HQs, however)
- Succubus (Sometimes performs well in melee)
- Wyches (useful in 5-person squads to lock things down in combat. I often use alongside Incubi)
- Khymerae, Razorwing Flocks (14 point version)
- Beastmaster (Good ONLY if you have a decent group of beasts to support)
- Wracks
- Medusae (Will melt faces when properly applied. Good to clear out marines. I prefer old-fashioned "apply poison to face" but sometimes you'll have the spare points for a Medusae or two to ride around with your Archon in the Venom)

Not So Good - will only shine in a perfect matchup or with some luck :
- Leilith Hesperax (Expensive. Not so killy)
- Drazhar (Use with Incubi, obviously. Useful if you can pull off a turn 1-2 charge or are fighting "hard to hit" foes. Expensive)
- Archon (Not good in melee. The Huskblade is a TRAP. Take an Agonizer. Expensive Blaster in a Venom is often the way to go)
- Kabalite Trueborn (All builds other than Blasterborn. Expensive for what they do)
- Reavers (Too expensive now for what they do)
- Sslyth (I have 18 of these modeled from 6th/7th edition when they were amazing. Now they're WAY too expensive for what they do. Possibly take 1 or 2 as a bodyguard for an Archon, but remember they are a BODYGUARD, not too useful in their own right)
- Lhamean (Playable if your opponent is running lots of high toughness, low armor save monsters)
- Grotesques (I prefer Clawed Fiends)
- Chronos (I don't have any, but seem overcosted and lack ap. Reroll to wound buff can be useful in the correct list).

Truly Deficient - the things these units do, other units do better, for cheaper :
- Hellions (Too expensive. Lack ap. Lack survivability. I converted ALL 20 of my Hellions to Corsair Skyreavers, for example)
- Ur-Ghoul (No. Just no)
- Talos (I don't have any, but seem way overcosted and lack ap. I'd prefer a Venom, Scourges, or Kabalites to shoot with for these points, or Clawed Fiends / Bloodbrides / Incubi to melee with)


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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Wed Jul 26 2017, 18:05

In 6th/7th I ran a Corsairs army much of the time, allied with Dark Eldar. Here's my review for what my corsairs become. Some are "counts as" now due to unit deletion. Blegh.

Top Tier Awesome - must-take if you have the model:
- Autarch Skyrunner (Former Corsair Prince. Equipped with Fusion Blaster + Star Lance. Super killy. Not too expensive. Great in melee and at short range. Gives a reroll to Craftworld units. Decent Toughness/Wounds/Invuln. The Banshee Mask can be a TRAP - it opens you up to counter-charge)
- Shining Spears (Former Corsair Cloud Dancer Felarchs. Super killy at melee and short range. Love them. Shame I only have 3)
- Warlock (Former Voidseer. Cheap. CHEAP. They're CHEAP! Got it? 37 points for an HQ brings more units elsewhere)

Good Choices - will almost always pull their weight :
- Corsair Skyreavers (14 point move 16" Shardcarbines? Yes please. Same price as Scourges but with a potentially better punch at short range through d6 pistols, but losing Deep Strike and with 1 worse armor save. Run as Ynnari for added impact)

Situationally Good - will work well with proper support, or against the correct foe :
- Warlock Skyrunner (A little expensive. Can be good alongside Windriders or Shining Spears)
- Corsair Cloud Dancers (Though I usually run as Windriders to save points since I have Shuriken Cannons modeled). Dark Lance is an option. Scatter Lasers are not so good.
- Vypers (Could really benefit from an invuln save of any sort)
- Rangers (Great if your opponent has weak HQs that are passing out buffs. Not so useful otherwise)

Not So Good - will only shine in a perfect matchup or with some luck :
- Corsair Reavers (Too slow. Currently have no transports. Pass. Only 1 Heavy Weapon per 5 now)
- Hornet (Has a rule to advance and get -1 to be hit, but only has Shuriken Cannons as Assault Weapons. 21 points more expensive than Vyper with 2 Shuriken Cannons, only gaining 1 toughness and 2 wounds. Can buy 2 Bright Lances for 30 points less than a Ravager's 3, but is at BS 4+ if it moves to shoot. No invuln save. Might be worth it with proper vehicle gear - Vectored Engines etc)

Truly Deficient - the things these units do, other units do better, for cheaper :

To Be Determined - I have the model but have not used it in 8th
- Farseer (Have not yet used due to keyword changes in how Psychic powers target units)
- Farseer Skyrunner (See above)
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Wed Jul 26 2017, 18:22

I haven't played *that* many 8th ed games yet, but so far, my grots have performed admirably. Granted, they've always got a haemy with them for the T buff.
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Wed Jul 26 2017, 22:20

Personal list.

God Tier (Definition: "Dominates their FOC slot or battlefield role completely. Army with less than 3 is likely doing it wrong."):
- Ravagers

"Can't Go Wrong" tier (Definition: "Rarely if ever a bad take")
- Kabalite Warriors
- Raiders
- Razorwing Jetfighters
- Voidraven Bombers

"Very Good, but Situational" tier (Definition: "Great at their niche, suffers outside it")
- Mandrakes
- Scourges
- Incubi
- Venoms (They're great, don't get me wrong, I just think that the price hike plus the weakening of poison plus multi-unit embarking puts Raiders a step above)

"Ok" tier (Definition: "Eh, they're alright, but unless you've got FOC requirements you probably wanna field something in the above tiers instead")
- Archon
- Succubus
- Haemonculus
- Bloodbrides
- Wracks
- Grotesques
- Clawed Fiends
- Beastmasters
- Medusae
- Sslyth
- Razorwing Flocks
- Kabalite Trueborn

"Bad" tier (Definition: "You probably shouldn't take these. Seriously, reconsider.")
- Lelith Hesperax
- Drazhar
- Urien Rakarth
- Wyches
- Hellions
- Reaver Jetbikes
- Ur-Ghuls
- Lhamaeans

"Why" tier (Definition: "Why")
- Talos
- Cronos

"Brigade" tier (Definition: "Fill out your FOC slots with these cheap bastards to get that sweet sweet brigade CP bonus that'll probably matter more once the codex drops")
- Kabalite Warriors
- Medusae
- Razorwing Flocks

"Overreact" tier (Definition: "This unit still has a few niche roles, but you're required by decree from Asdrubael Vect himself to freak out and act as if it's completely worthless")
- Razorwing Flocks

"Forgettable" tier (Definition: "Oh yeah, this was in our army too, wasn't it?")
- Khymerae
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Darkin
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Wed Jul 26 2017, 23:51

so you guys say incubi aren't that good?
and should i do 5x man kabalite with dark lances or blaster
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 01:07

Incubi are great at killing things in melee. Point-for-point, they're short only genestealers and harlequins and other extremely focused killers. The problem is getting them there, and they're not all that durable.
And I, personally, do 5 Kabalites with a blaster. 2x in a raider, usually.
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 04:22

Best DE units based on my experiences in 8th so far;

1) Ravagers - Lance variant is always good, but the Dissie have also become significantly better due to the way the new wounding and damage output works. Both units usually supplement each other, either in popping the transport and mowing down the passengers or the lances damaged some big thing enough and the dissie one mops up the remaining wound. Personally the most competitive unit in the codex, and the reason to spam only Spearheads in both variants to take down everything that you can see. Have tried a 4 spearhead detachment, and utterly mow down flyers and other units.

Don't want to use the term Codex : Ravager, but it is just that good.

2)Voidraven & Razorwing: Their damage output is impressive, but the only thing that impends them from replacing Ravagers entirely is their movement restrictions. A savvy opponent may force you to fly somewhere else that is worse off. Ravagers do not suffer from roadblocks.

3) Kabalite Trueborns/Kabalite warriors (lances or Blasters) - Both trueborns and warriors are lumped in the same boat for me as they are the best mop-up/ opportunist units we have. Refer to the Dissie Ravager for how they essentially work this edition.

4) Venoms: Has its own nerfs, but is perhaps our best platform for cheap, mass splinter weapon firing. Sure, the Kabalites in a Raider would perform well, but it is significantly more expensive to do so than having a Venom.

5) Raiders: In many ways, the new way transports work and how many units can embark on them makes them much more attractive. If a Trueborn with Dark Lances are embarking the Raider, you essentially get a slightly worse Ravager unless stationary.

6)Reaper: This golden boy from Forgeworld does its role pretty well. Just place them where their firepower overlaps with the rest of the army and they will support your entire army very well. Usually the main mode of firing would be the beam version, where it complements the Ravagers with lances. However, if forced to shoot infantry or once the BS is lowered to a crappy degree, the dispersed mode shines well enough.

7) Tantalus: This big baby is essentially considered as a souped up Dissie ravager with a transport capacity. Based on experience, it is usually the first thing to be killed, but in turn it takes a lot of fire away from the other units in order for them to do their job. If it is ignored, its firepower is also nothing to scoff at. Playing two of them is rather points heavy, but it will do its job well. Always supplement with the other units to make it work well.

Cool Birds: Even with the price jacking up, it is perhaps one of the most resilient sponge in the list which helps against alpha strike charges. It can also lift its own weight if needed.

9) Scourges: Being one of two alternate deployment units and with the ability to carry heavy weapons, it is the best unit for assassination.

10) Mandrakes: See Scourges.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 06:51

@Darkin - these lists are always subjective. Everyone plays differently and everyone has different meta. Saying Incubi are not good does not mean they cannot have a fairly important role in your list and be great at it. Same with netlists. In my book Incubi are one of the best along Wyches and I find even Reavers very useful. Game changed and power of the units changed. BUT also their roles changed. Tactic changed greatly. A lot of units cannot be used the same way as in 7th and that puts people off. Try the units you like and make them work. Do not think only about killing of the enemy, but about winning the mission and how the units will help you do that in those missions. Unit that kills nothing the whole game, but nets you 3VP is great...
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 07:23

@aurynn wrote:
I find even Reavers very useful.

I need some positive reinforcement for my 1st game (of 8th) . Thanks

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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 07:24

Our best unit is our Kabalite Warriors. They're cheap and expendable while also being threatening in large numbers. Everything else is varying levels of "meh". There is nothing, for instance, the Razorwing Jetfighter or Voidraven Bomber do that the Hemlock and Crimson Hunter don't do better. The Venom and Raider are outclassed by the Wave Serpent and the Starweaver. Incubi are worse than Troupes, Grotsesques are worse than Wraithblades, etc. Not saying that the Eldar units are fabulous but they just have so darn many of them that chances are they have an option that outperforms ours in any given capacity. And until they give us a reason not to, you're only gimping yourself by not including Eldar/Harlequins in your lists.

That being said, none of this is going to get you to high level play without serious tactical nuance AND going first.

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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 07:54

Best units :

-Our vehicules for their 5++
-Kabalites
-Scourge (if Ynarri)

Other units are from okay to useless.

I think our CHARACTERS are the most useless one...



--------------
I disagree about the Razorwing Jetfighter being worse. I think it is better than the Hemlock and the Crimson and is probably the best Dark Eldar Unit for now.

Crimson Hunter has less firepower (our missiles are great) but more manoeuver (but who cares 90° if you play well is ok) and his heavy weapons are not becoming assault. Okay, he has 2+ and can reroll wounds on Flying targets but the purpose of the Crimson is different I think and he is more expansive point wise (and a lot more expansive).

The Hemlock can only fire at 16", which in our case is fine for me. I am happy to have 6 Fusion pistols easily at 3" of it when he comes around. I don't like the HEmlock personnally even with the psychic he can use. He is bad to kill hordes for example.

And another important thing : we have a 4+/5++ which most other armies don't have. 5++ is really making it nice for us against those "hard hitting" weapons. And that makes our life better.

--------

Comparing to our brothers is not good as we are talking about Dark Eldars units, not "Eldars or Harlequins"... I do not agree about Wave Serpent being better than our Raider, its just not the same purpose and point cost. Yes, including the best units of the different armies inside a same detachment is better but you are out of the subject here.


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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 07:59

Talking about Dark Eldar units in isolation seems pointless since there is no barrier whatsoever to just slapping a Farseer in as your HQ instead of a useless Archon or Succubus. All the eldar factions have essentially merged at this point.

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UlrikTheSlayer
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 08:17

Rulewise I do agree with you that you can merge.
Still, fluffwise except for the Ynarri faction, there is no merge.
As far as I know the topic concernes DE units not other factions.
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 08:23

@UlrikTheSlayer wrote:
Rulewise I do agree with you that you can merge.
Still, fluffwise except for the Ynarri faction, there is no merge.
As far as I know the topic concernes DE units not other factions.

Think Allies

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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 08:44

@mynamelegend wrote:

"Brigade" tier (Definition: "Fill out your FOC slots with these cheap bastards to get that sweet sweet brigade CP bonus that'll probably matter more once the codex drops")
- Kabalite Warriors
- Medusae
- Razorwing Flocks

"Overreact" tier (Definition: "This unit still has a few niche roles, but you're required by decree from Asdrubael Vect himself to freak out and act as if it's completely worthless")
- Razorwing Flocks

"Forgettable" tier (Definition: "Oh yeah, this was in our army too, wasn't it?")
- Khymerae

If you're bringing anything to fill your FA slots it should be Khymeras. 2*10pts is cheaper than 3*14.


On the other topic, i think it's perfectly fine to bring Harlequins into a non Ynnari Dark Eldar force (they were once even part of our codex), and IMO you can bring CW if you also have Harlequins. The Harlequins often serve the role of diplomats between the 2 other branches of the eldar family, and they are friends with everyone (as guardians of the oldest tradition). But Craftworld and Dark Eldar in a non Ynnari army makes me cringe a bit (fluff wise).

About planes :
Of course the Hemlock is better than the Razorwing, it's 100 points more expensive. The Razorwing is extremely point efficient. The Voidraven a little bit less, IMO, but it has a nice bomb. The CH is more expensive than the RW, loses missiles and TL riffle to a pulse laser (a good trade), but loses the invulnerable save for more mobility (bad trade). It also has a reroll against fly, which is very neat.
But compared to 7th edition, where CW flyers were obviously better than ours in every possible way, in 8th edition we stand our ground : we are cheaper, and more resilient due to the free nightshields on everything.

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Darkin
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 08:49

@aurynn my playstyle is pretty fast. agressive and "killy" so ill take kabalite warriors in venoms, incubi in raider and replace ravager with razowings and/or voidravens
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 09:00

@Darkin wrote:
@aurynn my playstyle is pretty fast. agressive and "killy" so ill take kabalite warriors in venoms, incubi in raider and replace ravager with razowings and/or voidravens

The problem with flyers is their movement rules. You have to pivot 90* at most per turn, and move at least 20", which means that turn 4-5, you might be facing your own table side. If the battle is spread through the board, it doesn't matter, they have a good range. But if you are very aggressive and the enemy is confined in their deployment zone, then your late game RW/VR might have nothing to shoot at. So if you're planning an open field strategy, hoping your army from objective to objective while dancing around the enemy, i recommend flyers, but if you're more of a blitz player, they might fail you (and in that case Ravagers are better).

But that is a pretty situational problem, it's not like they are bad units (they are great). I just feel like having too many makes your movement phase quite hard to manage. I wouldn't play more than 2-3.
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 09:23

@Mppqlmd wrote:
The God tier :
- VR bomber
- Ravagers
The "you can't go wrong" tier :
- RW jetfighter
- Kabalite warriors
- Raiders
- Scourges
- Incubi
The very good but situational tier :
- Mandrakes
- Wracks
- Maybe clawed fiends/grotesques
- Venoms
The kinda good tier :
- Wyches
- Hellions
- Talos
The "Oh god why" tier :
- Chronos
- Reavers
- RW flocks

Haven't tested Khymeras, so can't judge for them.
This is of course a very personal ranking.

Trueborn > kabals
RW flocks are still perfectly viable, i'd rather have 100pts of them of Kabals.
Hellions are situational not kinda good imo

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Darkin
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 09:33

@Mppqlmd i think my saving grace is that DL''s have 36" and vehicles can shoot 360•. and when im honest razerwings are cheaper irl and personally the models are also better than ravanger!
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 09:36

I personally like Ravagers better only b.c i have Harlequins as my troops and when you have melee units charging up with large amounts of support, a couple Ravagers in the back are no threat, if i had a flier zooming around and up in front too, it just gets targeted faster for me.

Sneaking 2 Ravagers for me as been amazing. I also like the 3rd Lance over the missiles, i need more AT not some AT with some AI (Jetfighter are a mix roll), i like completely dedicated rolls.

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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 10:53

Well, one thing you miss : Ravagers do not prevent "teleport/charge". Razorwing does against "on foot" troops which are 95% of the units that can teleport.

I use Razorwing differently depending of the ennemies. But 2 Razorwing is fine to help prevent teleporters from charging you. If you play defensively, in a corner, its quite easy to prevent every no-fly units to charge your main army when they arrive. Otherwise you can also deploy correclty to have only one flank to protect from Teleports.

Usually, deploying and denying a flank help except if you spam 80 Kabalites...
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 15:41

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Talking about Dark Eldar units in isolation seems pointless since there is no barrier whatsoever to just slapping a Farseer in as your HQ instead of a useless Archon or Succubus. All the eldar factions have essentially merged at this point.

That's exactly why I reviewed the Eldar / Corsairs models in my collection.
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 17:40

I didnt realise people were having that much success with kabalite warriors this edition, whats the best way to run them?
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PostSubject: Re: The Best DE Units   Thu Jul 27 2017, 17:51

I put mine in Venoms with a Blaster and a PGL. They don't leave unless they are ready to claim an objective but most matches seem to end pretty lethally and don't boil down to objective vps for me so far.
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