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 Flocks still worth it?

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AshCrow
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PostSubject: Flocks still worth it?   Sun Jul 23 2017, 22:32

As the title suggests. I was just about to grab some flocks and saw today our little birds are now 14 pnts now. What's everyone's opinion now on them? Still viable but not as crazy? Shoot.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 00:42

I'm wondering the same thing. I've got a box on order and I have two and a half hours to decide whether or not to cancel.

Crap. Double points cost is brutal.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 01:14

Well stat wise they're pretty crap. ST 2 and hitting on 5+ means that even with 8 attacks they were unlikely to do any significant damage on a per base basis. Really all they were bringing to the table was very cheap, extremely fast wounds that could tie up most foes quickly while the rest of the army maneuvers.

At double the points cost... well, I am not sure it is worth it any more. It's very steep.

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Bugs_N_Orks
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 01:28

To spam an army full of, no definitely not worth it anymore. As a screen/smite catcher/DS blocker/unit tie-er upper, yeah they still have a definite purpose. 2-3 units with a single BM will still prob serve you well enough.
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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 01:31

I have 15 not painted and wondering if they will be painted. In a unit of 5 that is 70 pts for 20 wounds.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 02:22

At this point it is more advantageous to spam the ever loving hell out of warriors.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 02:23

That might not be a bad idea, actually.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 02:25

Of course it's not, it was what I was going to do until I noticed birds were even better. Give every squad an agonizer and use them as a multi-purpose beat stick. 12 squads is not even 500 points.

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PFI
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 02:44

Yeah warriors are very good. They were just horrendously overshadowed by flocks.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 03:01

We've just fallen from top tier that's for damn sure. The new top tier is "whatever GW hasn't gotten around to nerfing by the time the tournament date hits".

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lcfr
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 03:15

Could you link to the updated faq ? Call me a neanderthal but it's hellish for me to navigate the GW site
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AshCrow
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 04:15

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/23/updated-faqs-and-boots-on-the-groundgw-homepage-post-2/ hopefully that links right.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 06:35

Spamming warriors doesn't seem so bad. But nice to see that GW is addressing the problems.

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 07:18

CptMetal wrote:
Spamming warriors doesn't seem so bad. But nice to see that GW is addressing the problems.

Problems like this should not have occured in the "Most Thoroughly Playtested" version of WH40K.

Edit: Warrior spam looks GOOD.  12 Units across 2 Battalions with Warlock Leaders as HQ + a bunch of Fliers as support looks nasty.

Each Warrior Unit coming in with 5 models, an Agoniser and Blaster puts us at 54 Points per Unit.  12 of these comes in at 648 Points.  Add 4 Warlock Leaders and we're looking at 768 Points coming out with 60 models on the Board.  48 Poison shots per turn, 12 Blaster shots per turn and 2 meaningful attacks per fight phase with our Warlocks dishing out debuffs and the odd Shuriken shot.

in a 2000 Point game, we now have 1232 points to spend on Hemlock Wraithfighters, Razorwing Jetfighters, Ravagers and other heavy-Dakka.

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Last edited by Ikol on Mon Jul 24 2017, 07:48; edited 1 time in total
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 07:32

Ikol wrote:
CptMetal wrote:
Spamming warriors doesn't seem so bad. But nice to see that GW is addressing the problems.

Problems like this should not have occured in the "Most Thoroughly Playtested" version of WH40K.


Edit: Warrior spam looks GOOD.  12 Units across 2 Battalions with Warlock Leaders as HQ + a bunch of Fliers as support looks nasty.

Each Warrior Unit coming in with 5 models, an Agoniser and Blaster puts us at 54 Points per Unit.  18 of these comes in at 648 Points.  Add 4 Warlock Leaders and we're looking at 768 Points coming out with 60 models on the Board.  48 Poison shots per turn, 12 Blaster shots per turn and 2 meaningful attacks per fight phase with our Warlocks dishing out debuffs and the odd Shuriken shot.

in a 2000 Point game, we now have 1232 points to spend on Hemlock Wraithfighters, Razorwing Jetfighters, Ravagers and other heavy-Dakka.

Good thing I own a ton of warriors :-)

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 07:34

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Kill razorwing spam, warrior spam steps right up. Kill warrior spam, it's storm guardian spam. Kill that, something else will take its place. This is not a solution.

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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 07:39

TeenageAngst wrote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Kill razorwing spam, warrior spam steps right up. Kill warrior spam, it's storm guardian spam. Kill that, something else will take its place. This is not a solution.

I get what you are saying. But we all saw this coming for Razorwings. We can't base one FAQ for killing everything spammy in the future. Flocks we obviously too cheap. Warriors are fine as is.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 07:42

You wait until some schmuck with 100 warriors wins some GT and then they're all gonna be 17 points like Dire Avengers.

Which still makes no sense btw I'm pretty sure points values were set by a drunken game of darts.

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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 07:44

Ikol wrote:
CptMetal wrote:
Spamming warriors doesn't seem so bad. But nice to see that GW is addressing the problems.

Problems like this should not have occured in the "Most Thoroughly Playtested" version of WH40K.

Edit: Warrior spam looks GOOD.  12 Units across 2 Battalions with Warlock Leaders as HQ + a bunch of Fliers as support looks nasty.

Each Warrior Unit coming in with 5 models, an Agoniser and Blaster puts us at 54 Points per Unit.  18 of these comes in at 648 Points.  Add 4 Warlock Leaders and we're looking at 768 Points coming out with 60 models on the Board.  48 Poison shots per turn, 12 Blaster shots per turn and 2 meaningful attacks per fight phase with our Warlocks dishing out debuffs and the odd Shuriken shot.

in a 2000 Point game, we now have 1232 points to spend on Hemlock Wraithfighters, Razorwing Jetfighters, Ravagers and other heavy-Dakka.

and just to top it off, make it ynarri.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 07:47

TeenageAngst wrote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Kill razorwing spam, warrior spam steps right up. Kill warrior spam, it's storm guardian spam. Kill that, something else will take its place. This is not a solution.

The issue isn't that the Units are broken, the issue is that the entire bleeding game system is shunted.

The whole "Everything can Hurt Everything" idea is nice in the same ways that "Cows fart rainbows and only good people are given positions of authority" is a nice idea.

It completely destroys the meta, and makes low-quantity, high-quality utterly pointless.

It's poor game design, and there is no other way of looking at it.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 07:51

Stupid thing, the GW website still has the old errata, but the warhammer comunity the new one...

Not sure I agree, with your sentiment.
It just needs very carefull pricing. If everything can hurt everything it does not instantly mean the cheapest thing is the best. If not everything can hurt everything then just spamming the thoughest things can also be considered the best.


Last edited by |Meavar on Mon Jul 24 2017, 07:54; edited 1 time in total
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 07:52

|Meavar wrote:
Stupid thing, the GW website still has the old errata, but the warhammer comunity the new one...

Yep, definitely going with the "Points values were decided over a game of drunken darts" theory.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 08:20

Ikol wrote:
|Meavar wrote:
Stupid thing, the GW website still has the old errata, but the warhammer comunity the new one...

Yep, definitely going with the "Points values were decided over a game of drunken darts" theory.

Yes it was, but I think a monkey was also involved.

14pts is WAY too much. Idiots.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 11:42

10 Points would have been good (looking at Conscripts, Horrors, Ork Boys and Neophyte Hybrids for comparison).

I think someone else mentioned this number earlier?

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Flocks still worth it?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 12:00

|Meavar wrote:
If not everything can hurt everything then just spamming the thoughest things can also be considered the best.
That was what 7th edition was all about. Put 4 Wraithknight/Imperial knight/whatever model you chose that measures more than 20 cm in height, and call it a day.
Those game were as boring, but at least, they were over pretty fast. Playing a 12 hours game rolling 12 000 dices because some smuck is playing ONLY conscript is stupidly boring.
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