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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Fri Jul 21 2017, 20:27

A DE strategem that allows passengers inside a transport to disembark and move after the transport has moved, as if it were the beginning of the movement phase, would be nice.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Fri Jul 21 2017, 21:14

Anyone else want a lord of war model for the dark eldar? I mean it is hinted in the fluff that the biggest ship the empire has seen is the Tantalus but that the dark eldar do have bigger. Though I think a lord of war model for the dark eldar would be big necessarily... But the ultimate fusion of speed and death as only the dark eldar could put together like a new type of jet that hosts a wide variety of weapon options, like a slot for 4 dissies, dark lances or splinter cannons, a Darklight bomb generator that let's it bomb units it flies over with Darklight energy that not only kills but lowers ld, and missile pods that shoot 2d6 missiles instead of 1 ... Wishful thinking I know. Or some new coven model that combines fear and perfection.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Fri Jul 21 2017, 21:57

IMO, the obvious LoW model for DE would be Vect's Dais of Destruction.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Fri Jul 21 2017, 22:00

Like the one on the fifth edition codex?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Fri Jul 21 2017, 22:25

@Archon_91 wrote:
Like the one on the fifth edition codex?

I was actually thinking of something a bit more impressive.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Fri Jul 21 2017, 22:30

What would the dias of destruction that you want to see look like rules and stats wise? Keeping it within the parameters of what the True kin might actually have.
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sat Jul 22 2017, 04:30

Vect's Dias 650 pts, 30 PL

M     WS     BS     S     T     W      A      LD     SV
*           *         2+    6     7      20    *       10     4+/2++

*
Wounds = 11 - 20
M      WS      A
18     2+      2d6+6

Wounds = 6 - 10
M      WS      A
16     3+     d6+6

Wounds = 1 - 5
M     WS      A
14     4+     6

Weapons: 3 Twin Dark Lances
Whips and Chains - all Melee attacks to wound of a 5+ are mortal wounds
Under slug Twin Dark Sun Cannon

Focused Shot
Range       S      AP     Type
36            10     -4      Heavy 2

Scatter Shot
Range      S       AP      Type
36           8       -2       Heavy 2d6 + 3

Orb of Despair
Range     S       AP       Type
12           *       *         Pistol 1, one use only. If a target unit is hit, it must take a LD test with -6 LD. For every point the Unit fails by, it suffers one mortal wound. If the entire unit is slain, the orb reforms and may be used again.  (Note: Using this weapons means you can't fire any other weapons)

War Gear:
Improved Shadow field - 2++ save, but can be re-rolled via CP etc

Aeither Sails: When this unit advances, it may do so up to half it current movement stat.

Terror Racks: Enemy units within 6" may not fire Overwatch at units from the Kabal of the Black heart. Furthermore, they suffer a -2 to their LD

Abilities:
Power From Pain
Three Moves Ahead: An army with Vect seizes the imitative on a 2+
Hatred of Yannari: An arm with Vect may not have any Yannari in any allied detachments
Master Archon: Units of the Black Heart Kabal within 6" may re-roll failed hit rolls
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sat Jul 22 2017, 11:05

So some things I would like to see.

1. Flavor. Seriously, our units are the blandest around.
2. Wyches being good. They need actual killing power beyond a mediocre number of ST 3 attacks, and they need some way to survive more than one round against an enemy armed with pistols.
3. Bloodbrides being great. 4 points for +1 attack and leadership? Really? At least give them more weapons options over Wyches. Can you imagine if every Bloodbride could take an agonizer?!? AWESOME!
4. More weapon variety. I tend to find my armies field exactly two kinds of weapons. Darklight and Splinter weapons. That is the entire list. everything beyond that is available as a single weapon, and most of those cannot be fielded anywhere near en mass. Meanwhile my Craftworld Eldar field Lasers, missiles, monowire, shuriken, reality distortion, plasma, Fusion, and ALSO have a list of exotic weapons, with the listed ones generally having both hand held and heavy weapon versions. Seriously, the hippy craftworlders have this large variety of ways to bring death while the sadistic True Kin, masters of pain, have exactly two mainstays?!? Is it just me or is this kinda backwards?
5. Wargear. For both Vehicles and infantry. I mean seriously, we got NOTHING while the craftworlders got a good sized list!
6. Faster vehicles. I don't ask for much, I just want my raiders to win a race against a craftworlder artillery tank, rather than being beaten embarrassingly by it (Seriously, the Nightspinner has speed 16 and can be upgraded to advance 2d6 inches, while being given an assault 3 S 6 rendy-gun to fire while advancing).

I expect to get none of the above. But an Archon can dream, right?

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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sat Jul 22 2017, 11:53

One final thing I want: Synergy.
Our HQs have the worst supporting options in the game. Because each one only affects 1/3rd of the army. I mean, never mind that the abilities of two of the three are weak even when compared to similar HQs in similar armies (Hariquin Troupemaster gives nearby Harlies reroll failed wounds in melee. Our succubus gives cult members only reroll 1's to hit in melee. One of these abilities is VASTLY better than the other. Which is it?)

Either have our HQ abilities affect the whole DE list, or make them really powerful because we are the only army that is divided into three sections like this and as a result they should be more powerful to compensate for being less broad. Especially because we lack the force multipliers of Psychic powers or Etherials or orders or cryptecks or... we have no force multipliers anymore, do we?

I will put in a quick reminder that some armies get HQ abilities that give all attacks (ranged and melee) for that army the option of rerolling failed hits. Not just 1's in one phase for 1/3rd of the army. Or 1's for just one specific unit type.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sat Jul 22 2017, 12:08

Yeah, I really don't see the need for our Auras to only affect 1/3 of our army.

What's worse though is that most of our buffs would be weak even if they affected our whole army.

First off, we're an army that tends to have a lot of models in transports (and, as it stands, our HQs literally have no other options available to them). So odds are there are going to be quite a few turns when our HQs aren't affecting anything because they're still in their transports.

What's more, giving units Ld9 is just pathetic. It's a piddling increase on what we already have but more importantly it seems to be playing to a strength that we don't have. Our army is generally pushed towards MSU at the best of times, so for the most part Ld is going to be inconsequential. What's more, outside of maybe Covens, we're not going to win by out-attritioning the enemy - what we really need is a buff that helps us kill them faster.

Then you have the Succubus, whose aura lets friendly Wych units reroll to-hit rolls of 1 in the fight phase. Why is it that other HQs can give rerolls of 1 to all units in all phases, yet the Succubus can only buff a fraction of our army with a worse buff? Neutral

Oh, and let's not forget Drazhar - who gives Incubi a buff that PfP would have given them from turn 3 onwards anyway. Whoop-de-do.

The only buff that's any good at all is the Haemonculus one. Still no idea why it can affect vehicles but not non-Coven infantry though.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sat Jul 22 2017, 12:19

@The Shredder wrote:

The only buff that's any good at all is the Haemonculus one. Still no idea why it can affect vehicles but not non-Coven infantry though.
That would be because... um... reasons?
But yeah. Our commander buffs are pathetic (the Archon should at least be LD 10 if his big buff is that others get to use his leadership), and poor Drazhar has arguably the worst commander buff in the game, as it affects a very specific unit and is rendered redundant after two turns. And the Archon's buff is pretty pathetic and rendered redundant in turn 4 anyway. So amazingly, the craptastic Succubus reroll somehow manages to be the best buff we get access to. The Haemy's +1 T doesn't count because they dropped a bunch of toughness ratings for Coven stuff in this edition and frankly it's just getting our big stuff back to where it should have been to begin with.

TBH if this was Craftworlders, who get some of the best buffing psychic powers in the game, I would not be complaining. But As it stands we're an army in desperate need of good, reliable, flexible force multipliers. Which we do not have.

Edit:
Also, I don't play Covens stuff. I should not be forced to rebuild my entire army in order to get some good use out of my HQs abilities!

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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sat Jul 22 2017, 13:17

@FuelDrop wrote:
So some things I would like to see.

2. Wyches being good. They need actual killing power beyond a mediocre number of ST 3 attacks, and they need some way to survive more than one round against an enemy armed with pistols.


Combat drugs can make them hit harder already but it would make make sense to get the 4++ save against pistols when in 1"

What I want are our haywire grenades back, then again been able to throw only one at time might not be worth it.

@The Shredder wrote:

Then you have the Succubus, whose aura lets friendly Wych units reroll to-hit rolls of 1 in the fight phase. Why is it that other HQs can give rerolls of 1 to all units in all phases, yet the Succubus can only buff a fraction of our army with a worse buff? Neutral  

I want the Succubus aura to pass her drug buff to other units so our cult units can benefit from multiple drugs (not stacking/cumulative).

I see been able to spend CP to change drugs mid combat - I would almost put money on this

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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sat Jul 22 2017, 14:20

@FuelDrop wrote:
So some things I would like to see.

1. Flavor. Seriously, our units are the blandest around.
2. Wyches being good. They need actual killing power beyond a mediocre number of ST 3 attacks, and they need some way to survive more than one round against an enemy armed with pistols.
3. Bloodbrides being great. 4 points for +1 attack and leadership? Really? At least give them more weapons options over Wyches. Can you imagine if every Bloodbride could take an agonizer?!? AWESOME!
4. More weapon variety. I tend to find my armies field exactly two kinds of weapons. Darklight and Splinter weapons. That is the entire list. everything beyond that is available as a single weapon, and most of those cannot be fielded anywhere near en mass. Meanwhile my Craftworld Eldar field Lasers, missiles, monowire, shuriken, reality distortion, plasma, Fusion, and ALSO have a list of exotic weapons, with the listed ones generally having both hand held and heavy weapon versions. Seriously, the hippy craftworlders have this large variety of ways to bring death while the sadistic True Kin, masters of pain, have exactly two mainstays?!? Is it just me or is this kinda backwards?
5. Wargear. For both Vehicles and infantry. I mean seriously, we got NOTHING while the craftworlders got a good sized list!
6. Faster vehicles. I don't ask for much, I just want my raiders to win a race against a craftworlder artillery tank, rather than being beaten embarrassingly by it (Seriously, the Nightspinner has speed 16 and can be upgraded to advance 2d6 inches, while being given an assault 3 S 6 rendy-gun to fire while advancing).

I expect to get none of the above. But an Archon can dream, right?

Pretty Much this list to a T.

I expect to see wyches get a minor boost to their damage, and The Baron to make a return. I am trying not to be jaded, but I think the Cronos was the last new model we got... and it was a resculpt of the Talos kit.. SO new models as much as I'd love to see them I seriously doubt we will.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sat Jul 22 2017, 14:30

@FuelDrop wrote:

That would be because... um... reasons?
But yeah. Our commander buffs are pathetic (the Archon should at least be LD 10 if his big buff is that others get to use his leadership), and poor Drazhar has arguably the worst commander buff in the game, as it affects a very specific unit and is rendered redundant after two turns. And the Archon's buff is pretty pathetic and rendered redundant in turn 4 anyway. So amazingly, the craptastic Succubus reroll somehow manages to be the best buff we get access to. The Haemy's +1 T doesn't count because they dropped a bunch of toughness ratings for Coven stuff in this edition and frankly it's just getting our big stuff back to where it should have been to begin with.

Yeah, I don't like that they reduced the base toughness of Talos and Cronos (especially since toughness offers far less protection now). I'd have rather they left them T7 and gave the Haemonculus a more interesting aura.

@FuelDrop wrote:

TBH if this was Craftworlders, who get some of the best buffing psychic powers in the game, I would not be complaining. But As it stands we're an army in desperate need of good, reliable, flexible force multipliers. Which we do not have.

Agreed.

@FuelDrop wrote:
Also, I don't play Covens stuff. I should not be forced to rebuild my entire army in order to get some good use out of my HQs abilities!

Oh, I completely agree. I want to be able to have my Haemonculus ride with Incubi and such and buff them. Restricting his aura to Coven units is dull, unnecessary and unfluffy.
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sat Jul 22 2017, 21:33

Personally I don't want us to get the bulk of our buffs from characters. I mean we already get army wide buffs for free from PFP. Not many other armies get that amount of buffs heaped on every unit in the army just for surviving one more turn. Is that mechanic a little boring? sure. But I don't want my warriors to be dependent on having an Archon in tow in order for them to be effective. He is not leading a squad of highly disciplined warriors. Making their hearts swell with pride at the courageous general leading from the front, in order for them to perform some supernatural feat of heroism. He is unleashing a swarm of individualistic, opportunistic murderers on the enemy position, and as far as they are concerned they are there to have a good time, not following lame orders. Sure they will let him suggest who they kill first, and they are free to act on that suggestion or become part of the share of slaves paid to the haemies after the raid. It is a free galaxy after all.
I need my units to be able to move freely to anywhere on the board and be able to do their job alone. If we rely on character buffs, our mobility suffers because we would need (or at least be incentivised ) to clump as many of our troops as possible together with the HQ in order to maximize on the buffs. That woks for hordes or heavy armored armies but not for us.  
I say let the archon be cheap and flexible. He just needs to get access to wargear that lets him be a toolbox archon again.

I'd rather have cool strategems that allow us to break the rules in unfair ways.
As already mentioned by DuelDrop, more inventive and cinematic ways to decimate the enemy. Or just make the ones we have already, as strong as darklight and poison. AND GW IF YOU ARE READING THIS, THAT DOES NOT MEAN NERF DARK LANCES!
More generic miniboss HQs, paired with kabal/cult/gang chapter tactics that will allow us to theme a large part of the army around, for instance, hellion gangs or jetbike teams.
Debuffs. Lots and lots of stacking debuffs.
No wait this is a wishlist...
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sat Jul 22 2017, 23:04

I'm on the opposite side: I'm a huge fan of force multipliers. By itself, an Archon or a Haemonculus isn't worth much on the battlefield, which makes sense, because it's rare for a military leader to be an actual military asset in terms of killing power.

I loved Duke Sliscus and Baron Sathonyx, back when the strength of a character wasn't always their ability to earn their points in raw kills, but sometimes to enhance the rest of your army out of proportion with their cost.

I really want that again. Fortunately, it looks like we've got it a little bit, (more so with the Shadow Spectres).
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sun Jul 23 2017, 00:26

Don't get me wrong. I love force multipliers. But I don't want to be forced to keep my squads in a 6" or even 12" radius of my HQ. It is fine if they are both needed for the same task, but for instanc, what is I need my HQ to guard the backfield and the troops to clear out something in the opponents deployment zone. Do I pick one task and send both to do it, possibly wasting the HQs CC capabilities by having him tag along with something that is best solved with shooting, or do I split them up and forego the buff aura on the warriors making it next to pointless.
If the archon gave a flat bonus to all units regardless of range, then that would be something different. But that is not how most HQ buffs work as far as I can see. The benefits that we got for including the Duke could just as well not be attached to him as a special character. It could be a pre game strategem or a chapter tactic like bonus for choosing to play as ... uh whatever his kabal was called.
The baron on the other hand was made to go with hellions. I don't want him back, but I want a hellion HQ choice that will buff hellions slightly and be good at murdering stuff on his own. He also must have a great sense of humor, be a non smoker, enjoy reading and walks on the beach.

I like the beastmaster. He is meant to hang out with beasts, and he buffs only them. He does a great job for less pts, and no one cares too much if he starts pining for the fjords.

Another option would be for the squad leaders to have access to some wargear that buffed he unit slightly. Like the shimmershield.
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sun Jul 23 2017, 00:28

I once designed an alternative power from pain system for 7th edition. At its most basic it was the army getting a pain token for every enemy they kill (with challenges getting extra tokens, and succubi getting extra tokens from challenges), and losing a token every turn. Starting pain tokens was determined by your Warlord choice.

If things were going really bad you might end up on negative pain tokens. Which was bad. Losing your warlord also robbed you of their bonus pain tokens, which was a big deal. If a game was going terribly you ended up on army wide leadership penalties, slowed, ect. If you manage to get to turn 7 without earning a single pain token and losing your warlord you start losing guys.

On the flip side, the table was very powerful if you managed to get some good killing going. It encouraged a VERY aggressive playstyle, rather than sitting back while bonuses build up.

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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sun Jul 23 2017, 01:44

I definitely prefer force multipliers that give their bonuses just by inclusion, without a command radius for it.
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sun Jul 23 2017, 10:31

@Scrz wrote:
Don't get me wrong. I love force multipliers. But I don't want to be forced to keep my squads in a 6" or even 12" radius of my HQ. It is fine if they are both needed for the same task, but for instanc, what is I need my HQ to guard the backfield and the troops to clear out something in the opponents deployment zone. Do I pick one task and send both to do it, possibly wasting the HQs CC capabilities by having him tag along with something that is best solved with shooting, or do I split them up and forego the buff aura on the warriors making it next to pointless.

This seems odd to me.

Surely a decent buff is better than a worthless one, even if you rarely bother with it?

If nothing else, the 'reroll 1s to hit' aura would buff the Archon's own Melee and Shooting capabilities.
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sun Jul 23 2017, 14:41

@The Shredder wrote:
@Scrz wrote:
Don't get me wrong. I love force multipliers. But I don't want to be forced to keep my squads in a 6" or even 12" radius of my HQ. It is fine if they are both needed for the same task, but for instanc, what is I need my HQ to guard the backfield and the troops to clear out something in the opponents deployment zone. Do I pick one task and send both to do it, possibly wasting the HQs CC capabilities by having him tag along with something that is best solved with shooting, or do I split them up and forego the buff aura on the warriors making it next to pointless.

This seems odd to me.

Surely a decent buff is better than a worthless one, even if you rarely bother with it?

If nothing else, the 'reroll 1s to hit' aura would buff the Archon's own Melee and Shooting capabilities.

Not if you have to pay more points for the better one. The biggest problem for me is if it lures me into making bad tactical choices trying to shoehorn it into my strategy because I don't want the good buff to go to waste. There are plenty of kids with no buffs in the Afrik dust plains you know.

But the point I was trying to make about the archon is that he does buff the units he is supposed to hang out with (the court). If something should buff the warriors, it should be a drachon. Of course all this is just based on my personal play style preferences and interpretation of the fluff. The best case scenario would be for the new dex to contain a set of warlord traits that we could choose from to allow the players to make him fit their playstyle. Be it buff caddy, character hunter, tank buster or tactical mastermind. I would much prefer a no brand, highly customizable HQ like the corsair prince over any special characters we might get (back).
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sun Jul 23 2017, 15:00

@Scrz wrote:
Not if you have to pay more points for the better one.

How much do you think it would cost?

A Canoness has a similar statline to the Archon and has the reroll 1s aura, yet costs just 45pts base.

@Scrz wrote:
The biggest problem for me is if it lures me into making bad tactical choices trying to shoehorn it into my strategy because I don't want the good buff to go to waste.

Forgive me but that seems a rather selfish reason to deny others access to a good aura on their Archons. Neutral

@Scrz wrote:
There are plenty of kids with no buffs in the Afrik dust plains you know.

Yeah, they're called DE players. Wink

@Scrz wrote:
But the point I was trying to make about the archon is that he does buff the units he is supposed to hang out with (the court).

The aforementioned Canoness buffs the units she's supposed to hang out with (Celestians), but her buff isn't exclusive to them. Because that would be both boring and far less useful.

@Scrz wrote:
If something should buff the warriors, it should be a drachon.

That's the thing though - I don't want buffs to be that specific. I can understand it for stuff like Drazhar, but for an Archon it just forces you into very specific builds.

@Scrz wrote:
The best case scenario would be for the new dex to contain a set of warlord traits that we could choose from to allow the players to make him fit their playstyle.

With that in mind, wouldn't the reroll 1s aura still be better? Passing out Ld can already be done with a Warlord trait if you so choose.

@Scrz wrote:
I would much prefer a no brand, highly customizable HQ like the corsair prince over any special characters we might get (back).

On that point I agree entirely. I wish Corsair Princes still existed. Sad
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sun Jul 23 2017, 17:19

@Shreds
#1: Knowing GW, it would cost a lot more than it is worth. Comparing point costs in other armies is, in my opinion, not a great measure of how much a buff or wargear is worth since a lot of other factors differ too much.

#2: That is the reasoning for me disliking aura buffs for DE in general. I'm not in any position to deny anyone anything. I would if I could mind you. I'm not into realspace reaving for the altruism. I love you

#3: If you don't consider PFP a buff.

#4: Again, not really comparable IMHO.

#5: Yes that is a problem with fluffy rules. It is a needless restriction for people that don't care that much for the fluff. But overlapping aura buffs encourages only one strategy and that is running everything around on foot in a clumped up blob. I'd rather be forced to build special units and be free to use them as I please afterwards than be able to build any unit but be forced to run them all up in a tight formation, or lose out on buffs I have been forced to pay a premium for. Again, just my preference.

#6: Virtually anything would be better than the crappy +1 LD buff bubble, if the points stayed the same.
If I had the choice to remove that "overlord" ability for even just a 1pt decrease I'd take it. But instead of wishing he had a better but still situational bubble buff, I'm wishing he had a really universally useful rule.

#7: Silence the pianos and with muffled drum....
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sun Jul 23 2017, 17:36

Flyff wise debiffs auras would make more sense imo. -1 leadership aura on the archon would be amazing.
Would also make the DE unique as an army.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: What things can we expect to be added when our codex drops?   Sun Jul 23 2017, 17:42

@Scrz wrote:
@Shreds
#1: Knowing GW, it would cost a lot more than it is worth. Comparing point costs in other armies is, in my opinion, not a great measure of how much a buff or wargear is worth since a lot of other factors differ too much.

If we're assuming that it will be overcosted from the outset then we might as well just assume we won't get anything worthwhile and end the thread. Razz

@Scrz wrote:
#2: That is the reasoning for me disliking aura buffs for DE in general. I'm not in any position to deny anyone anything. I would if I could mind you. I'm not into realspace reaving for the altruism. I love you

Touche. pirat

@Scrz wrote:

#3: If you don't consider PFP a buff.

I'm not seeing how that helps the Archon. Neutral

In any case, I consider the current PfP meh.

@Scrz wrote:
#4: Again, not really comparable IMHO.

If the Archon is so special and whoop-de-different that he's only allowed to buff his own crappy court then excuse me while I draw a target on the lid of my trash can.

@Scrz wrote:

#5: Yes that is a problem with fluffy rules. It is a needless restriction for people that don't care that much for the fluff. But overlapping aura buffs encourages only one strategy and that is running everything around on foot in a clumped up blob. I'd rather be forced to build special units and be free to use them as I please afterwards than be able to build any unit but be forced to run them all up in a tight formation, or lose out on buffs I have been forced to pay a premium for. Again, just my preference.

'Crap' and 'useless' aren't synonyms of 'fluffy'. Wink

In any case, I think your point about auras only applies if they're exceptionally strong auras (like that of Roboto Girlyman). Reroll 1s is nice but it would hardly be worth sacrificing DE's vehicles or mobility for in the manner you suggest.

@Scrz wrote:

#6: Virtually anything would be better than the crappy +1 LD buff bubble, if the points stayed the same.
If I had the choice to remove that "overlord" ability for even just a 1pt decrease I'd take it. But instead of wishing he had a better but still situational bubble buff, I'm wishing he had a really universally useful rule.

What sort of rule would you want instead?
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