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 Over 6 combat drug units?

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HaeSuse
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PostSubject: Over 6 combat drug units?   Wed Jul 19 2017, 01:37

It's obvious how the rule is written in how to handle up to 6 units using drugs. However, it you go OVER 6, can you just start reusing one of them as much as you like?


Last edited by HaeSuse on Wed Jul 19 2017, 02:36; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixing autocorrect from stupid smart phone)
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Wed Jul 19 2017, 01:47

That appears to be the way the rule is written. 10 units means one of each, then the other four can have whatever they like, including four of the same kind if you choose.
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eric.emerson
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 00:59

I interpreted it to be one of each until you have all 6. Then one more of each until you have taken each a second time. But I didn't really read it all that close.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 01:42

Once every drug has been taken once, you are absolutly free.

Also, i don't think this has been said before, but you can stop chosing your drugs, and start rolling them, at any moment.
So if you have 4 units of wyches, you can assign +1S, +1A and +1T to 3 units, and then roll the die for the 4th. If it rolls a drug somebody already has, it's perfectly fine. You can't chose a drug already taken, but you can roll for it.

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masamune
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 13:47

Risky but iteresting x)

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 14:06

Personally I have been playing it safe and conservative - use all 6, use all 6 again... And so on

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 17:10

I forget if I'm allowed to do this, if i'm in the wrong, may the mods smite me.

RAW " Alternatively, you can pick the bonus the unit receives, but if you do this you cannot choose a bonus that has already been taken by another unit until all six combat drugs have been taken once each." -From the Combat Drugs section of the Drukhari Index.

I'm no English Major here, but I get all sorts of confused when it ends with "once each" why they couldn't have just ended it with "once" and this discussion could be over, is... interesting to say the least.

The way I interpret the rule, is almost like a computer program. each time you choose a drug for a unit you have to go through this kind of logic:

Step 1: Set up
Are you rolling or choosing? if rolling go to step 2. if choosing go to step 9

Step 2: Rolling
Does another unit have a drug? (y/n) if "no" go to step 3. if "yes" go to step 4.

Step 3: Rolling first drug
This is your first drug that you are rolling for. Roll a d6. that unit now has the corresponding drug. Start over for next unit.

Step 4: Rolling nth drug.
1 or more units have drugs. Have you previously rolled for these drugs or has 1 or more of these drugs been chosen? If all the drugs have been rolled for, proceed to step 5. If 1 or more drugs have been chosen, proceed to step 6.

Step 5: All Random Drugs
All drugs taken so far have been randomly generated by rolling a d6. Roll a d6. that unit now has the corresponding drug.  Start over for next unit.

Step 6: Rolling for nth drug after choosing 1 or more
You have previously chosen 1 or more drugs to give to your units. Have all 6 drugs been taken at least once? (y/n) if "no" go to step 7. if "yes" go to step 8.

Step 7: Rolling for nth drug after choosing 1 or more, all 6 not used
You have previously chosen 1 or more drugs to give to your units. Not all 6 drugs have been taken. roll a d6 to determine the drug to give to your unit. if the result is a drug that is already taken, continue to roll until the result is a drug that has not been taken.  Start over for next unit.

Step 8: Rolling for nth drug after choosing 1 or more, all 6 have been used.
You have previously chosen 1 or more drugs to give to your units. All 6 drugs have been taken on at least 1 unit each. roll a d6. your unit now has the corresponding drug. Why you aren't just choosing the drugs at this point is beyond me. enjoy your fluff you masochist.  Start over for next unit.

Step 9: Choosing Drugs
You have elicited to choose the drug that this unit will take. Have previous drugs been taken? (y/n) if "no" go to step 10. if "yes" go to step 11.

Step 10: Choosing your first drug
This is the first drug to be taken in your army. You may choose any drug you wish. Start over for next unit.

Step 11: Choosing your nth drug
Drugs have previously been taken in your army. Have all 6 drugs been taken at least once? (y/n) if "no" go to step 12. if "yes" go to step 14.

Step 12: Choosing your nth drug. Not all 6 drugs have been used.
Drugs have previously been taken in your army. Not all 6 drugs have been used. You may choose an unused drug  from the list.  Start over for next unit.

Step # this step has been omitted for luck reasons.

Step 14: Choosing your nth drug. All 6 drugs have used.
Drugs have previously been taken in your army. All 6 drugs have been used. You may choose any drug you wish.  Start over for next unit.

When all units have drugs, terminate program and display results.

^that's how I interpret the rules. While writing this I realized a couple of things. First off. I am uncertain if you are allowed to roll randomly for a drug and then decide "nah I don't like this one, I think i'll choose one instead." I would assume not, as my instructions state, you do not get to back out after you have decided that you are either rolling or choosing. Also, I am uncertain if you are allowed to use a Command point to reroll the drug roll.

This may require an FAQ or something but another little tidbit I noticed. I am assuming that this is a linear progression of events and it's not an all or nothing where all the drugs are chosen at once. It is only when you start to choose what drugs you're taking that the drugs become locked until you take all 6. From my interpretation you can randomly roll +1 Toughness 3 times in a row and then you can start choosing your drugs. By doing so you now have 3 units with +1 toughness and the toughness choice has become "locked" until you take all 6 drugs at least once.

Basically, this opens up an entire new tactic to how Combat Drugs work. It can be incredibly beneficial to start with random rolls, and hoping for good results. I'd recommend continuing to roll as long as you get +1A, +1S, +1T. As soon as you roll one of the other results, getting a +2 move (unless you wanted this), +1Ld or +1WS, you can switch to choosing your drugs instead and take the +1A, +1S or +1T that you wanted and maybe didn't previously roll. Even if your first roll is a +1Ld, you can switch to choosing, take the 3 good results and now you just need 2 more "drug tax" to unlock the good drugs again.

Either way, I'd love to hear what y'all think.

Tl:dr:  I put some serious thought and effort into this. For the sake of the discussion at least skim the material.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 18:17

I feel that 7. is wrong. The limitation about drugs already being taken only concerns the chosing option. If you roll, rolling a drug that has already being assigned (chosen or rolled) to a unit is perfectly fine.

To me the protocole is much simpler :
A, Random:
       A1 : Roll. The result is the drug. Even if 3 other units have the same.
B, Choice :
       B1 : Are all 6 drugs already assigned (by rolling or choice) ? Pick what you want.
       B2 : If not, assign a drug that isn't already taken
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 19:08

I agree. If you're randomly rolling, you can legally generate a drug that was already taken, either by random selection or specific selection.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 19:17

So, Mppqlmd to reiterate your point, you're saying:

1. It doesn't matter when you decide to choose or roll, the resulting options will always be the same either way.

2. Rolling randomly does not have any impact on the drugs that you are able to manually choose.

and

3. Choosing does not have any impact on the drugs that you are able to randomly roll.

I see the point you are making and I think that the biggest support of this interpretation comes from the wording

"...you cannot choose..."  

the drug roll is random and as such you are not "choosing" a bonus, therefore the limitations when picking a bonus is not applied to random rolls. I think you might be spot on there.

Otherwise, I would like to point out two things from the Combat Drugs rule:

A) "Before the battle, roll on the combat drug table to see which combat drug the unit is using."
B) "You cannot choose a bonus that has already been taken by another unit ...[]"

I may be wrong and might be nit picking at the rules way too much, in which case I will offer a full apology.  I interpret the rules, that while choosing a drug, because the bonus "has already been taken by another unit" maybe because of random rolling, maybe because of choosing, but you are not able to take that drug again and it is effectively "locked" until you have fulfilled the requirement of taking each drug once.

so to summarize, I believe you are correct on items 1 and 3 that I listed above and I believe that item 2 is incorrect.


Edit: reread your post several times after I posted this just to make sure I understood your argument. I misunderstood your last bit. I completely agree with you. my apologies friend. Embarassed

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Last edited by Barrywise on Thu Jul 20 2017, 19:30; edited 1 time in total
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 19:29

Here's what i think :
- Rolling does impact the drugs you are able to choose.
- Choosing doesn't impact the drugs you are able to roll.

If you start by rolling drugs (which you should never do) and roll Painbringer for 1 unit of wyches, you cannot assign manually Painbringer to anyone until all drugs have been assigned/rolled once.
But if you assign manually Painbringer, then roll for another unit, and the result is also Painbringer, it's completly legit, and you have 2 units with painbringer.

No need to apologize, though, we are discussing this Smile

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 19:34

So the actual version would look more like this:

Step 1: Set up
Are you rolling or choosing? if rolling go to step 2. if choosing go to step 3

Step 2: Rolling
Roll a d6. that unit now has the corresponding drug. Start over for next unit.

Step 3: Choosing Drugs
You have elicited to choose the drug that this unit will take. Have previous drugs been taken? (y/n) if "no" go to step 4. if "yes" go to step 5.

Step 4: Choosing your first drug
This is the first drug to be taken in your army. You may choose any drug you wish. Start over for next unit.

Step 5: Choosing your nth drug
Drugs have previously been taken in your army. Have all 6 drugs been taken at least once? (y/n) if "no" go to step 6. if "yes" go to step 7.

Step 6: Choosing your nth drug. Not all 6 drugs have been used.
Drugs have previously been taken in your army. Not all 6 drugs have been used. You may choose an unused drug  from the list.  Start over for next unit.

Step 7: Choosing your nth drug. All 6 drugs have used.
Drugs have previously been taken in your army. All 6 drugs have been used. You may choose any drug you wish.  Start over for next unit.

The 7 step process to using drugs Twisted Evil

So then, as you said, the best route would be to start with choosing the good drugs and then rolling and hope to get lucky with the others. To which another discussion can occur for: when do you bite the bullet and take the "bad drug tax"? maybe 10+ drugged units?

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Last edited by Barrywise on Thu Jul 20 2017, 19:43; edited 1 time in total
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 19:42

Yep, i agree to that Smile

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 20:35

This is a correct workflow for drugs, I think.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 20:42

This is correct for how it is written. But I feel it was meant that after the 6th, you cycle for 6 new drugs. I mean... It doesn't have any logic. "Here's 200 doses of premium +1 attack drug. And, 1 dose of the other ones. Take those new premium ones..... Except for you 5.... Take the crap ones, because, f*ck you!"

But as it is written, it is correct.
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Thu Jul 20 2017, 21:49

I figured you just started over again with choosing. So the first 6 than the next 6 etc. But reading it again, I concur with the whole 6 than drug orgy freedom. Makes the limitation kind of dumb in the first place but eh
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Fri Jul 21 2017, 00:37

I wouldn't be surprised either way, if the intent is ever made clear to us.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Fri Jul 21 2017, 02:25

There is a logical (yet absurd) explanation :
If you have 1-5 units of junkies, you only bring some poor punks that have little stock and thus cannot serve the good weed to everyone.
But counting from 6 and further, you're bringing the whole woodstock festival with you, so they can share whatever the heck they want. Except for the first 5 punk units. Because noone likes punks.

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Fri Jul 21 2017, 03:00

fingers crossed the codex does something about that.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Fri Jul 21 2017, 09:42

14 stage workflow chart for rolling/picking 1 of 6 drugs? Methinks you are over complicating things!

Rolling a drug? You take what you're given.

Picking a drug? You take what you want as long as nobody else has it already UNLESS at least one unit has each of the 6 drugs.

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Fri Jul 21 2017, 18:04

I cut it down to 7 Sad . And yeah, was just trying to figure it out to the smallest minutia so that everyone is on the same page and understands the "logic" behind it.

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PostSubject: Re: Over 6 combat drug units?   Sat Jul 22 2017, 14:50

Rolling Random? Roll away! You get what you roll, regardless!!

Choosing? Are there any that aren't taken yet? You've got to choose one of those. If all are already taken, Choose whatever you want!
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