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 Archite glave + combat drugs

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Massaen
Klaivex
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 09:59

Sorry - a 1 is always a fail, regardless of modifiers

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 10:02

This is all literally covered as I have described in the offical designers commentary.

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 10:03

@dumpeal wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Nothing requires it to be unmodufied - that's not in the rule

NICE! So, I'll run Drazhar with Incubi, since he give a +1 on to hit rolls.

As my incubi are WS 2+, when I'll roll a unmodified 1, it will be modified to a 2. As you said, I litterally change the facing of the dice. So, every 1 will now be a 2, which is not a auto-fail.

Result, my incubi will never miss. Thanks!

Incubi are 3+ WS, not 2+. Only the Klaivex is 2+. I'm pretty sure that when it says "A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply" it is saying that a natural 1 always fails, even if you have a modifier that would alter it.

In any event, the rules are pretty unclear due to the ungodly mixture of modifiers to the rolls and the characteristics, and GW not knowing the difference between a roll and a result, plus the spanner in the works of applying re-rolls before modifiers. What a frikkin' mess!


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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 10:07

@Massaen wrote:
Sorry - a 1 is always a fail, regardless of modifiers

Of course, it is always a fail, regardless of modifiers. That's PRECISELY what I wanted to tell you when I said "unmodified roll". So a role dice of 2 WON'T become a auto-fail of 1, no matter the modifier.

Nothing in the rule say you can't lower your WS below 2+. What matter is the unmodified roll of 1 to always be a fail.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 10:09

Go read the link I shared

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 10:15

Which part do you want me to read? I don't see anything in this related to the topic.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 10:23

The first 6 questions and answers cover this situation

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 11:07

I'll get throw the flowchart of the question 4.

Succubus have the -1WS drug and the archite glaive.

She first roll a 1.

Reroll is applied on the unmodified roll. (without the reroll, it would have been a miss, because of the auto-fail, at this moment.)

She reroll and get a 2.

Now, modifier are applied. She gets a -1 to hit. She now has a 1 result. As it is modified, she wouldn't get a reroll if she didn't already have used one before.

Now, we compare the result with the score needed.

She got a result of 1.
She hit on 1+.

It is a success.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 11:17

What ever dude.. I am done. 1 is a fail.

You play it how you like... Sigh...

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 11:41

@Massaen wrote:
What ever dude.. I am done. 1 is a fail.

You play it how you like... Sigh...


I honestly don't understand you. One hand, you say the "1 is a fail" is applied before the modifier and on the other hand, after. You need to make up your mind.

You yourself admitted the "1 is a fail" is on the unmodified roll. Why the modified roll of 1 should ALSO be a fail? Where is it written?
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 13:03

I have no idea about this whole before and after thing you keep saying... 1 is a fail. Period. There is no making up my mind. It's simple. Did you roll a 1? That's a fail.

I never said its on the unmodified roll - it's regardless of modifiers - meaning if you have +1 and roll a 1 you can't modify it to not be a 1. Nothing stops a dice being modified down to be a 1 and thus fail. The examples in the designers commentary bare this out.

A roll of a 1 fails regardless of modifiers. You check did I roll a 1? Yes? Then you fail despite having positive modifiers. Did I roll a 2? Yes? My WS is 1+ so I hit! But wait!! I have -1 to the dice roll so my 2 becomes a 1... Now... 1 always fails... So I miss despite the 1+ WS...

I just don't get why this is so hard to grasp...

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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 13:20

@Massaen wrote:
I have no idea about this whole before and after thing you keep saying... 1 is a fail. Period. There is no making up my mind. It's simple. Did you roll a 1? That's a fail.

I never said its on the unmodified roll - it's regardless of modifiers - meaning if you have +1 and roll a 1 you can't modify it to not be a 1. Nothing stops a dice being modified down to be a 1 and thus fail. The examples in the designers commentary bare this out.

A roll of a 1 fails regardless of modifiers. You check did I roll a 1? Yes? Then you fail despite having positive modifiers. Did I roll a 2? Yes? My WS is 1+ so I hit! But wait!! I have -1 to the dice roll so my 2 becomes a 1... Now... 1 always fails... So I miss despite the 1+ WS...

I just don't get why this is so hard to grasp...

Sorry, my bad. I should not have said "unmodified roll". I will say "regardless of modifiers"... Which is the same thing. You check if it's a 1 REGARDLESS OF MODIFIER. Positive OR NEGATIVE. A negative modifier IS A MODIFIER.

I'll put it even easily to see. If you roll a dice, do you see one dot? yes? It's a fail. No? It's not a auto-fail.

It's as simple than that. You don't apply any modifier to determine if it's a auto-fail. It's on the bare, physical dice. Take your dice and write "fail" on the 1 face. If you see "fail" you fail. If not, well... it may be a fail, depending on the stat, but not a auto-fail.



Does anyone else here understand or agree with me?
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 13:49

At best, the current rules are unclear. Deliberate antagonism serves no one.
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 15:08

@Jimsolo wrote:
At best, the current rules are unclear.  Deliberate antagonism serves no one.

We'll have to ask GW. To give us a chance, we better ask then about space marines. They will allow it! Razz

Does anyone know a +1 bonus to hit roll for a ranged weapon a space marine has?
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 15:14

Doesn't seem unclear at all, you don't get to modify the natural roll of a 1
You rolled a 1 no modifiers are applied, but you can use rerolls if you have them.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 15:29

@Seshiru wrote:
Doesn't seem unclear at all, you don't get to modify the natural roll of a 1
You rolled a 1 no modifiers are applied, but you can use rerolls if you have them.

I think what Dumpeal is getting at is that if it's modified to a 1 from some other result you have not rolled a 1, it's therefore not an automiss and if you have 1+WS it should hit.

Not saying I agree, but I can see the confusion. Difference between roll and result.

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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 15:44

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Seshiru wrote:
Doesn't seem unclear at all, you don't get to modify the natural roll of a 1
You rolled a 1 no modifiers are applied, but you can use rerolls if you have them.

I think what Dumpeal is getting at is that if it's modified to a 1 from some other result you have not rolled a 1, it's therefore not an automiss and if you have 1+WS it should hit.

Not saying I agree, but I can see the confusion. Difference between roll and result.


Exactly. They only thing not sure is if we can lower the WS to a 1+. But I don't see why not, as you can have a 7+ save.
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