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sumguy777
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PostSubject: Archite glave + combat drugs   Sun Jul 16 2017, 05:33

so a succubus with Combat Drugs (+1 to hit) does this neutralize the -1 from the Archite glave? I realize you cant get better than a 2+ so a 2-1+1 = 2 right? Or is there something i am missing
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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Sun Jul 16 2017, 06:07

You've got it right!
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Sun Jul 16 2017, 06:10

Where does it say you cannot get better than 2+? You can, but 1 is always a miss AFAIK.
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sumguy777
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Sun Jul 16 2017, 06:14

aurynn wrote:
Where does it say you cannot get better than 2+? You can, but 1 is always a miss AFAIK.

it doesn't that i know of. just was pretty sure 1 is a miss. still learning this edition dispite playing at least 4 games. maybe ill get to plat a whole game by the rules this edition. although i did like 7th
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Sun Jul 16 2017, 06:53

Ok. I thought I missed something. Very Happy
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Sun Jul 16 2017, 15:17

Don't forget that she gives herself rerolls on the 1's you roll for "to hit" before modifiers.

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Mon Jul 17 2017, 09:48

This is one of those messy rules.

The Drugs are not +1 to hit, but +1 to WS, so it doesn't counteract the -1 to hit from the Archite Glaive. If you take the +1 WS, then you hit on 1+, but a 1 is always a miss.

If you roll a 2, you don't qualify for reroll because rerolls are before modifiers, but it would then be modified to a 1 and therefore a miss.

It seems silly to me, but I think the +1 WS is useless for the Succubus.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Mon Jul 17 2017, 11:52

I read that only a natural roll of a 1 is always a miss (since it mentions irrespective of modifiers, I assume this is checked before modifiers).
So if you have a ws 1+ succubus and you roll a 2 (not an auto miss) you modify it and it becomes a 1 (a hit since you have ws 1?
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Mon Jul 17 2017, 12:35

I did think like that, but then they clarified Plasma overheats on a roll of 2 if there is a hard to hit target. I assume that means that a natural 2 with a -1 to hit is a 'roll of 1' and therefore an auto miss.

Silly and counter-intuitive as it might seem.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Mon Jul 17 2017, 14:22

Sorry - but Kantalla is correct - the modifier is to the dice result - not the target number.

So, a 1+WS still misses on a 1 (1 always fails)

The archite glaive is -1 on the hit dice

The succubus has reroll 1's

Rerolls are done before modifiers

So a result of a 2 is a hit according to the WS, it skips the reroll option as its a hit, and then takes the -1 to the result leaving you with a 1 - which is always a fail

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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Mon Jul 17 2017, 14:27

That is a different thing in my mind. Overheats are clarified to be after modifiers.
But the auto miss says specifically errespecitive of modifiers. By your ruling if you would have a +1 you do not allow it to count for the auto miss but with a -1 you do? Or do you say if you roll a 1 with a +1 is a 2 and thus is not a miss anymore, thus getting auto hits? Overheating is done after modifiers, here it does not matter if it is + or -
It says irrespective of modifiers. (English is not my native language, but by definition:
irrespective
adjective not taking (something) into account
Thus it means not taking modifiers into account.
So the 1 as an auto miss is not taking modifiers into account, thus you check it before any modifiers are applied, after modifiers you do not look at the auto miss anymore.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Mon Jul 17 2017, 14:38

Huh. That's an interesting perspective on the rule. My assumption was that the rules function the same way, but you're saying that because they aren't word for word the same, the WS automiss on a 1 only applies to natural 1's, which we get to reroll anyways. Interesting.

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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Mon Jul 17 2017, 15:53

Massaen wrote:
Sorry - but Kantalla is correct - the modifier is to the dice result - not the target number.

So, a 1+WS still misses on a 1 (1 always fails)

The archite glaive is -1 on the hit dice

The succubus has reroll 1's

Rerolls are done before modifiers

So a result of a 2 is a hit according to the WS, it skips the reroll option as its a hit, and then takes the -1 to the result leaving you with a 1 - which is always a fail

But if we take it the other way, (I'll invent a situation, because I don't know all the indexes) if you have a bonus that gives you +1 on the hit dice, a result of 1 will get you to 2, which is not the auto-fail of 1.

It doesn't work, the auto-fail of 1 is on the bare dice, without any modifier. So, I think the succubus will hit on a 2+.
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 04:57

Page 181 - BRB - A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply.

Page 46 - Xenos 1 Index (Archite glaive) - When attacking with this weapon, you must subtract 1 from the hit roll.

So you roll a 2... you have to subtract 1 from the ROLL - which leaves you with a roll of a 1... which is always a fail

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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 05:02

|Meavar wrote:
That is a different thing in my mind. Overheats are clarified to be after modifiers.
But the auto miss says specifically errespecitive of modifiers. By your ruling if you would have a +1 you do not allow it to count for the auto miss but with a -1 you do? Or do you say if you roll a 1 with a +1 is a 2 and thus is not a miss anymore, thus getting auto hits? Overheating is done after modifiers, here it does not matter if it is + or -
It says irrespective of modifiers. (English is not my native language, but by definition:
irrespective
adjective not taking (something) into account
Thus it means not taking modifiers into account.
So the 1 as an auto miss is not taking modifiers into account, thus you check it before any modifiers are applied, after modifiers you do not look at the auto miss anymore.

You are not making much sense here - a +1 does not allow a 1 to hit - the BRB says so. Modifiers almost universally (there are a couple of exceptions) affect the roll - not the target number. Its why over heats can trigger on a 2 (with a -1) or why Tesla can trigger on a 5 (with a +1) - it changes the dice result - not the target number.

The sequence in the BRB is roll the dice against your stated (generally on the data sheet) target number. Reroll based on this result if you can. Apply modifiers. determine results.

You never get to modify a 1 - its always a fail by the BRB.
The succubus hits on a 2+ by her stat which is what you roll against. Anything 2+ is a hit. You then reroll 1's thanks to her ability. THEN you apply the -1 to the archite glaive to EVERY DICE - 6's become 5's, 5's become 4's and so on. Anything not a 2+ at that point misses.


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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 07:11

The problem I have with your interpretation is that you do not check at a set time.

You have a -1 you check at the end after modifiers
You have a +1 you check before modifiers

In my mind it should be either before modifiers the 1 is a miss (which I think it is before it ignores modifiers)
Or after modifiers a 1 is a miss

Or maybe you want it to be even during modifiers so if I roll a 2 and have a -1 and a +1 you apply the -1 it is a miss, to bad you have a +1 because it is wasted.

Either go with an unmodified roll of a 1 is always a fail, or a roll of 1 after modifiers is always a fail. Otherwise if I have a +1 and a -1 and a bonus on a 6 I can also say I apply the +1 when I roll a 5 get the extra attacks and then apply the -1 but still make the extra attacks because I had a 6 at some point.
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 11:46

I think this is rather illogical, and caused by some ambiguity on what is a roll and what is a modified roll.

It seems reasonable to me for a natural 1 to always be a miss regardless of any modifiers, so that there is always some risk of missing the target.

It seems odd to me to blow up Plasma Marines more frequently because there is a hit modifier, so my initial though was that you roll a 2, it's not a natural 1, so not an auto-miss. That could be modified down to 1 and you hit because you have 1+ WS. When they clarified Plasma could overheat with a hit penalty on a natural 2 (because it is a roll of 1) then the natural conclusion for the Succubus is that a roll of 2 is a miss even with 1+ WS.

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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 12:16

I beg to differ, with the plasma it is nowhere noted that it is without modifiers.
With the 1 is an auto miss it is mentioned without modifiers. So the two are something different altogether.
The difference between:
"a roll of 1 irrespective of modifiers" (only if you roll an unmodified 1): automatic miss
"a hit roll of 1" (if you get a 1 after modifiers): plasma explosion (it even mentions after all shots have been resolved, thus maybe even implying that you might still hit even if you explode?)
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 14:01

|Meavar wrote:
The problem I have with your interpretation is that you do not check at a set time.

You have a -1 you check at the end after modifiers
You have a +1 you check before modifiers.

What do you mean by this? You apply modifiers at the end of all rerolls before finalising the results. The combat drug modifies the stat line to 1+ but a 1 still always fails regardless of modifiers.

So the WS is 1+
You roll a 2 - which makes it a hit according to the WS
You can't reroll because it's a hit
You apply the -1 to the hit roll making it a 1... Which is a miss because the dice is now a 1 and 1 is always a fail.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 14:08

Massaen wrote:
|Meavar wrote:
The problem I have with your interpretation is that you do not check at a set time.

You have a -1 you check at the end after modifiers
You have a +1 you check before modifiers.

What do you mean by this? You apply modifiers at the end of all rerolls before finalising the results. The combat drug modifies the stat line to 1+ but a 1 still always fails regardless of modifiers.

So the WS is 1+
You roll a 2 - which makes it a hit according to the WS
You can't reroll because it's a hit
You apply the -1 to the hit roll making it a 1... Which is a miss because the dice is now a 1 and 1 is always a fail.

So you have a +1 to your WS and the ability to re-roll 1's and neither of them have any effect! And people say this isn't counter-intuitive...

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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 14:09

Jeah so you check at the end in your excample.
Now I roll a 1 with a +1 modifer
So the WS is 1+
You roll a 1 - which makes it a hit according to the WS
You can't reroll because it's a hit
You apply the +1 to the hit roll making it a 2... Which is a Hit because the dice is now a 2 and 1 is always a fail. But I think we both agree this is wrong?

And you completely ignore part of the sentence: You check irrespective of modifiers. So you should only check before modifiers in my mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 15:42

Where is the +1 to hit coming from?

A ROLL of a 1 is always a fail. Roll a 1 and regardless of any possible positive modifiers - it's a miss.

Likewise, with a penalty to the ROLL I can make the dice become a 1 - you literally change the dice facing to be 1 if you originally rolled a 2. You have now rolled a 1... Which misses

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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 15:44

Massaen wrote:
|Meavar wrote:
The problem I have with your interpretation is that you do not check at a set time.

You have a -1 you check at the end after modifiers
You have a +1 you check before modifiers.

What do you mean by this? You apply modifiers at the end of all rerolls before finalising the results. The combat drug modifies the stat line to 1+ but a 1 still always fails regardless of modifiers.

So the WS is 1+
You roll a 2 - which makes it a hit according to the WS
You can't reroll because it's a hit
You apply the -1 to the hit roll making it a 1... Which is a miss because the dice is now a 1 and 1 is always a fail.

The flaw in your logic is that you modify your dice result to determine if it's a 1. For a 1 to be a auto-fail, it must be a unmodified 1.

If you roll a 2, with a -1 modifier, you have a 2 on your dice. It's not a auto-fail. But the result of your roll will be 1. But a dice result and a roll result is NOT the same thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 15:47

Nothing requires it to be unmodufied - that's not in the rule

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PostSubject: Re: Archite glave + combat drugs   Tue Jul 18 2017, 15:50

Massaen wrote:
Nothing requires it to be unmodufied - that's not in the rule

NICE! So, I'll run Drazhar with Incubi, since he give a +1 on to hit rolls.

As my incubi are WS 2+, when I'll roll a unmodified 1, it will be modified to a 2. As you said, I litterally change the facing of the dice. So, every 1 will now be a 2, which is not a auto-fail.

Result, my incubi will never miss. Thanks!
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