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megatrons2nd
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PostSubject: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 12:51

The new version of FnP that we have, has me a touch confused.

Do we roll it before the damage step, or do we roll it for each point of damage received?

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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 12:57

"Suffers a wound" so before the damage roll.
After the damage roll would be something like "loses a HP"

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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 13:00

You roll for each WOUND you take.
Example: person a wounds one of you models. You fail the save and the weapon causes 2 wounds. You roll 2 dice in this case.
It makes sense because otherwise someone could get lucky and block a six damage weapon with just one roll
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 13:09

The problem here is that "Wound" refers to 2 different phases of the attacking process.

Hit roll gives you a hit - Wound roll gives you a wound - save roll gives you an unsaved wound - Damage roll gives you multiple wounds

So the term "wound" can refer to the product of phase 2 or phase 4.

So either you roll before rolling your saves (and it blocks the entire attack), or after the damage roll (and it blocks one dmg point).

If you compare to Spirit Stones, you have on one side "each time a model with spirit stones suffers an unsaved wound", and on the other side "each time a model with this ability suffers a wound".
The phrasing is almost identical, with the exception of the word "unsaved". So it can be argued that Inured to Pain comes before the save roll.

GW just should have named the product of Phase 4 a "damage point"
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 13:12

@TrawlingCleaner wrote:
You roll for each WOUND you take.
Example: person a wounds one of you models. You fail the save and the weapon causes 2 wounds. You roll 2 dice in this case.
It makes sense because otherwise someone could get lucky and block a six damage weapon with just one roll

A wound does 1-6 damage. The "damage" is the final step. A save will stop all 6 damage from a single roll. The rule book even has an illustration/example of this. I'm just unsure where this rule fits in, before or after the damage step.

But, using your reasoning, so far it is 1 and 1 on before or after the damage step.

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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 13:16

Unfortunately GW use wounds and damage in the final step to mean the same thing, so it kind of further confuses things
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 13:18

Also, let's compare to the ork Painboy rule :
"Each time a model within 3" LOSES a wound, roll a dice... ". This is very clearly done after the damage roll, at the point where you take the wound from your HP reserve.  
We have
"Each time the model SUFFERS a wound". Not the same terminology, so good reasons to think it might not refer to the same step. Our terminology is closer to the Spirit stones one, and spirit stones act after saves, but before damage roll.

IMO, it acts before armor saves Suspect even though that's crazy and unintuitive. Because spirit stones concern "suffer unsaved wounds", but we have "suffer wounds". So wounds that have not yet been saved or unsaved.
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 13:27

Maybe I've been playing it wrong then? Reading your arguement makes me think that it should be before the saving throw which doesn't make much logical sense
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 13:33

@TrawlingCleaner wrote:
Maybe I've been playing it wrong then? Reading your arguement makes me think that it should be before the saving throw which doesn't make much logical sense

That's the problem with having rules written for each separate codex/index instead of the Rulebook USR. Since each of those "Feel no pain" (Spirit Stones, Inured to pain, Painboyz) have been written by a different person (presumably), there is no coherence whatsoever.

I have to admit, so far i played it as "before damage roll, after saves". Playing it before or after saves doesn't change anything to the result. Rolling it before or after damage roll is a huge deal. And since our wording is closer to the wording of Spirit Stones than to the wording of Painboyz, i would play it like a spirit stone.

But logical sense isn't something you should be looking for in W40k ruling.

I have to admit, this topic is more complex than i thought when i posted my first answer.
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 14:10

Q: When rolling for abilities such as ‘Disgustingly Resilient’ or ‘Tenacious Survivor’ against attacks
which inflict multiple wounds, do you roll to ignore each individual wound inflicted by the attack, or do
you roll only once to ignore all the wounds inflicted by the attack?
A: Roll to avoid each wound lost separately.

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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 14:41

Does this apply to Spirit Stones ?
I just can't understand that rules written so differently might have the same effect.

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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 15:39

I always thought of it as a successful "to wound" roll means that the weapon is now going to wound the targeted model. You are now in the "wounding phase" (TM starting now) you then check the weapon profile for how many wounds the weapon causes.

So if you want to be specific. It is because they specify that it is a "to hit" and "to wound" instead of a hit and wound roll that you can conclude that wounds suffered refers to after damage has been applied.

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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 15:50

You allocate wounds at step 3 of the sequence for resolving attacks. At that stage it is not an unsaved wound because you have yet to roll for your save. Mortal wounds are specifically allocated in the same way.

You only suffer wounds at step 5 (pg 181 of the rulebook), which occurs after you roll for damage. So my reading is that you have to roll damage first and then take your 'save' for Spiritstone, Ynnead Stirs, Inured to Suffering or whatever for each point of damage (wound) suffered. This is backed up by the quote from the Designer's Commentary that I posted previously.

They really needed to change the terminology so that there is a clear, written distinction between Wounds and Damage. Damage is essentially unsaved wounds in 7e terms.

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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Fri Jul 14 2017, 23:01

Add on Question: Can you use this rule and the Warlord trait that does the same thing together?

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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Sat Jul 15 2017, 14:30

@megatrons2nd I'm pretty sure you can't make more than one save during the same phase, but could be wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Sat Jul 15 2017, 15:13

Megatron2nd yes you can. Rules by different names stack with I think the only exception being the red grail and a standard blood chalice don't. They aren't saves. That one is in the faq I believe
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Sat Jul 15 2017, 15:35

@PFI wrote:
Megatron2nd That one is in the faq I believe

It is. You can 100% use the Warlord Trait and PfP.
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Sat Jul 15 2017, 17:08

So the PfP ability and the Covens ability DO stack? That's sick.
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Sat Jul 15 2017, 22:49

@Jimsolo wrote:
So the PfP ability and the Covens ability DO stack?  That's sick.

Sorry, I might've missed it, are you talking about the 5++ and the 6+++from FNP?
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Sat Jul 15 2017, 23:32

Yep. I've got edition fatigue. I'm so used to the covens wound-shield being a FNP save (and that not stacking with other FNP saves) that it took me by surprise when I realized they worked together.
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Sun Jul 16 2017, 00:00

It's really great though that they made a PFP table that benefited Coven Units Smile

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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Sun Jul 16 2017, 00:27

Definitely. (That being said, the Covens PFP table from 7th was hot.)
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Mon Jul 17 2017, 07:57

Is it just me or would it not have been much simpler if they kept the term damage consitant.
Now we save with our feel no pain against d6 damage but they still call it wounds. This makes no sense to me. Which is why the first game me and my opponent were both dazzled that I only had to make one fnp save versus the ork rokket.
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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Mon Jul 17 2017, 10:05

You're not alone in thinking that. They are clinging to terminology from previous editions that simply doesn't work in the current edition due to changes in game mechanics.

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PostSubject: Re: inured to pain or whatever   Mon Jul 17 2017, 18:29

Its the difference between "suffers a wound" and "loses a wound". Suffers a wound happens after any armor/invul saves, but before damage occurs. Loses a wound happens after damage has been rolled and allocated to models. This is also why PfP does not grant a MW save and ‘Disgustingly Resilient’ and ‘Tenacious Survivor’ do.
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