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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 10:09

Slightly strange comparison at first glance, but surprisingly similar under the surface.

Unit of 5 Mandrakes 95 points
Venom with 2 Cannons 95 points

Good start Wink

Both are anti infantry and both have (realistically) an 18" shooting range

Mandrakes put out 10 str4 AP-1 shots
Venoms put out 12 poison 4+ AP0 shots

Against Marines, pretty similar outputs

The disparity comes when looking at survivability. Both have -1 to hit and 5+ Inv. Venoms have a 4+ save.

Venom T5 W6
Mandrakes T3 W5

16" move vs 8" I think replaces the fact that Mandrakes can Deep Strike.

I only see Venoms as winners pretty much everytime.

Opinions?
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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 10:24

Mandrakes get PfP and more attacks in combat tho.

edit: you also missed the chance to do additional mortal wounds on 6's which is another bonus.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 10:32

PfP doesn't help them (over the Venom) unless they are in combat. I don't see Mandrakes in combat unless you have done something wrong.

I did forget about the Mortal wounds, but it's such a low chance of actually coming off, it's unlikely do happen and if it does, it's so rare, I don't see it matters.

The only other thing I've thought of, is that actually killing T4 and upwards is pretty easy for DE. All my lists have loads of Dissies or Dark Lances. So actually the hard part is killing massed T3. In which case, Mandrakes or Swooping Hawks will put down 6 wounds rather than a Venom's 4. 50% more wounds for less survivability. I'm still not sure it's worth it. The next turn, you are going to have either lost the unit completely or have so little firepower left, it's basically useless. The Venom stays till it dies.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 10:55

Well I think that Mandrakes are not worth it either. Very Happy
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 11:01

I like your comparison.

I think the venoms are better against hardly anything. but they are much faster and much thougher.
Against those "nearly equal MEQ" it suddenly becomes a factor 2 difference because of those mortal wounds. (2.78 for mandrakes, vs 1.33 for venom), against tanks the difference are even larger (2.22 for mandrakes and 0.44 for venom)
And mandrakes fight better, after softening up a vehicle or ranged unit I often charge them in
A unit of 5 would be 15s4 attacks that is another 1.67 dead marines, not good if they still have 7 man standing but against the last 2 I defenitly would do it.
Even against large tyranids (where I expected the venom to win) the mandrakes do more damage. (2.22 for the mandrakes 1.33 for the venom, those mortal wounds are a large part of their damage)


So mandrakes deal much more damage then your venom. But they also die much faster and are harder to have at the right place at the right time. So for mobility clearly go the venom, for pure killing power mandrakes all day long. And remember dead mandrakes means less killing power, the venom stays optimum stats till he dies.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 11:58

One good point for the mandrake, their are not vulnerable to multi wound weapon like the Venom
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 12:57

Mandrakes can wound vehicles (technically Venoms can, but eh), have some AP to help at it, and even inflict mortal wounds to them. Their melee is far from being a joke (especially with 2+ WS).
The problem is the same as with scourges, hellions, etc. : they create a target for AI shootings. What i love with DE is that if you only field boats and planes, there is no clear target for ennemy bolters, lasguns and all.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 13:08

Or, you put your mandrakes in your venom to have to mobility of the venom and the mortal wounds of the mandrakes. When the venom dies, you hide in the wrecks.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 14:16

@Hellstrom wrote:


I only see Venoms as winners pretty much everytime.

Opinions?

That is not true in any sense of the word. As in all things warhammer, it is situational at best. Using your "against marines they are the same" line of thought... it depends on what marines, who goes first, the deployment distance, etc..

So, take 5 marines IN COVER with 4 lascannons. they go first. they are deployed 40" away.
Still think venoms and mandrakes are equal?

3 hits, 3 wounds (save 1) = dead venom on average, unless gullyman is nearby then dead venom is a certainty.

mandrakes drop in, shoot 10 times, get a mortal wound or two and has ap-1, can then charge and finish the job in HTH.

Not even close. mandrakes are 100X better than a venom in that scenerio.
Mandrakes are almost universally better against:
Vehicles
Units in cover
Any unit with a 2+ save

Venoms are universally better against:
Mobile infantry / jetbikes
Monstrous creatures with a toughness higher than 5
engaging in HTH against anything that flies

So a "this is better than that" comparison is not going to work.


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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 14:56

@Skulnbonz wrote:
So, take 5 marines IN COVER with 4 lascannons.  they go first. they are deployed 40" away.
Still think venoms and mandrakes are equal?

3 hits, 3 wounds (save 1) = dead venom on average, unless gullyman is nearby then dead venom is a certainty.

mandrakes drop in, shoot 10 times, get a mortal wound or two and has ap-1, can then charge and finish the job in HTH.

I agree with what you're saying overall but the 'math' is misleading at best. 4 lascannon shots, 4+ to hit (flickerfield), 3+ to wound, 5++ save, d6 damage is ~3 wounds on a Venom, so hardly a guaranteed or even likely kill. The Mandrakes likely get a couple of wounds off from shooting and need an 11" charge to get into combat (assuming the marines are in pretty much any cover other than ruins).

I agree Mandrakes are generally better though.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 15:02

They come with something that is scarse in the army : mortal wounds (we have few snipers, and they are expensive, no psychic, our Mortal Wounds weapons are lackluster : Ichor Injector is bad, Klaivex is okay, and HWB is lackluster). So they are great utility against things with good Inv and such.
But yeah, charging on the arrival is tough for mandrakes. You are 9.1 " away, so you need a 9" charge to get within 1". But since you're shooting, your opponent will make sure to remove the models closest to you. If you kill 1-2, it might be almost impossible to charge them.
Of course, you can shoot 1 unit and charge another ^^

Edit : didn't mention the Voidmine since it's not the same role. Voidmine is for large amount of troops with inv/good armor, Mandrakes are for character hunting.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 15:32

@Skulnbonz wrote:


Not even close. mandrakes are 100X better than a venom in that scenerio.
Mandrakes are almost universally better against:
Vehicles
Units in cover
Any unit with a 2+ save

Venoms are universally better against:
Mobile infantry / jetbikes
Monstrous creatures with a toughness higher than 5
engaging in HTH against anything that flies

So a "this is better than that" comparison is not going to work.

Most of those monstrous creatures have a save better then 5+, which means that the mandrakes still deal more damage. Against anything with a decent save they win hands down (even against a monstrous creature with t8 if it has a 3+ save the mandrakes have a higher damage output).

Which means it depends on what you want. Less on who you want to kill. Pure 1 turn damage output the mandrakes just win against pretty much everything. But you miss mobility, and against most things survivability. Which means that during the course of the battle you might deal less damage.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 15:58

And at the same time, Mandrakes are immune to alpha striking, and they count 5 models, so they can hope to seize an objective.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 16:07

Multi-damage weapons are also way more dangerous to a Venom than a Mandrake Squad.  You can roll as high on the d6 as you want, the Mandrakes still only take 1 wound.

Of course, the Venom isn't really susceptible to Morale effects most of the time...
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 17:08

@Hellstrom wrote:

I did forget about the Mortal wounds, but it's such a low chance of actually coming off, it's unlikely do happen and if it does, it's so rare, I don't see it matters.

Against T1-3 targets 1 out of 4 wounds will generated an additional mortal wound
T4 Targets 1 out of 3
T5 - 7 targets 1 out of 2
T8+ ever wound generates an extra mortal wound.

If you start factoring in saving throws you see about half the damage for the majority of targets is actually coming from the mortal wounds.

It's not rare or small.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 17:58

You will do in average 1,11 mortal wound for 5 Mandrakes. That's very good Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 19:27

I think both should be taken. Mandrakes can help with that last objective or finishing off a key squad, and venoms can carry units which is very helpful

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 19:32

2k points - 100 mandrakes dealing 33 mortal wounds per turn on average plus 33 wounds average on MEQ, plus assault potential, hard to hit and invul.... Hmmm... Little less coz HQ ofc, but still... Very Happy

Compared to 20 Venoms with 240 poison shots, 120 T5 Wounds... Well Venoms without things to carry are just a bit sad. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 19:45

@Mppqlmd wrote:
They come with something that is scarse in the army : mortal wounds (we have few snipers, and they are expensive, no psychic, our Mortal Wounds weapons are lackluster : Ichor Injector is bad, Klaivex is okay, and HWB is lackluster). So they are great utility against things with good Inv and such.
But yeah, charging on the arrival is tough for mandrakes. You are 9.1 " away, so you need a 9" charge to get within 1". But since you're shooting, your opponent will make sure to remove the models closest to you. If you kill 1-2, it might be almost impossible to charge them.

Which is why you place them closest to the model they don't want to die.

If your opponent has to decide between killing the lascannon to prevent the charge, or keeping it and hoping you fail then either way it's working out.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 20:29

@sekac wrote:
Which is why you place them closest to the model they don't want to die.

If your opponent has to decide between killing the lascannon to prevent the charge, or keeping it and hoping you fail then either way it's working out.

Good point, although that's a very specific scenario.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 20:51

Mandrakes don't get shot if you go second because of the DS. They also charge and fare somewhat better in melee. I would say "they have some similarities but mostly differences.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 22:09

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@sekac wrote:
Which is why you place them closest to the model they don't want to die.

If your opponent has to decide between killing the lascannon to prevent the charge, or keeping it and hoping you fail then either way it's working out.

Good point, although that's a very specific scenario.

Absolutely. That's what I love about mandrakes though. With their ability to show up anywhere, there are all sorts of really specific scenarios you can pretty reliably pull off. Find the placement that will be the biggest thorn in your opponent's side and put them there.

Venoms are for scooting and shooting purely, mandrakes are for mischief.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Thu Jul 13 2017, 22:27

What's your experience with them and what tactics did you use?

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Fri Jul 14 2017, 01:12

@CptMetal wrote:
What's your experience with them and what tactics did you use?

Well I've been using 10 mandrakes in nearly every list since 5th Edition (god they were bad then, but I still used them) so my tactics and experiences with them have been many and varied. The thing I've always appreciated about them (ever since they were allowed to shoot without getting a pain token first, anyway) is they've been one of our only generalist units in a highly specialized army.

They can shoot well enough, are capable in combat, can screen in a pinch, camp on objectives from turn 1, and they're a little harder to kill than their toughness 3, or skirt-but-no-shirt outfit would suggest. Whether it's stealth, shrouded+stealth, or now -1 to hit (both shooting and CC), they dig in like a tick and just tie up resources.

The overall strategy for our sinister machinations on the table is using our top-end speed to control range, and overwhelm isolated pockets of the enemy. The enemy knows to beat us, they have to box us in and break us quickly before we slip away. (Scenario notwithstanding)

I've always found that we surrender too much board control when we just scoot and shoot with our skimmers, because while we're picking them off, everything else can move at full speed, unhindered to form the box.

Mandrakes slow them down and split them up. Opponents can't afford to ignore a unit squatting on a remote objective, or threatening the backfield fire base, or scampering around tossing mortal wounds on vehicles and big nasties. They have to be dealt with at some point, and whatever shots or CC threats are going their way aren't going towards our precious skimmers. Whether that results in an opening to slip through, or a chance to pounce on an isolated unit, or a chance to blow a hole in their line to fracture the enemy into 2 or 3 or 4 disparate chunks. That's when you can really leverage the mobility, saturation, and efficiency of the rest of the list.

I'm only 5 games into 8th so I'm still getting my head around them, but they still do what they do.

Game 1 v Necrons I deployed them too far afield. They only harassed some warriors. I wasn't yet thinking about shooting at one unit and charging another, and could have deployed them much better.

Game 2 v Imperial Guard I again deployed a little too far on the flank, but was able to shoot up a weapons team, dish a few wounds onto an already wounded leman russ--crippling it, and then charging another to prevent it from shooting next turn. Don't forget, their weapons are assault, so the can move 8"+D6 and still shoot at -1 if you really need to get moving.

Game 3 v Orks they blew up a trukk (rolled hot on mortal wounds), butchered its occupants, killed 30ish grots, tied up an artillery squad, and were gonna kill another 30 and tie up more artillery before we ran out of time.

Game 4 v Thousand Sons I deployed one unit of 5 behind Magnus and put a couple mortal wounds on him. The other I deployed in front to screen my motorpool and put a couple more on him. Magnus died that shooting phase, then both units were hilariously smited off the table with identical rolls of 11 on the psychic test, and 5 on the mortal wounds dealt. Oh well.

Game 5 v World Eaters I deployed both units behind his rhino rush, put a few mortal wounds on his bloodthirster, and dared it to split off from the main thrust, which it (and 1/3rd of his berserkers to deal with a unit of scourges) did. 5 of the mandrakes tied up the thirster for his, mine, and his again combat phases and dealt it 1 wound to bring it to half and the first level of degradation. Move 8"+Time wasted meant it was out of the game. The other unit went on to dish a wound or two on some berserkers, and a mortal wound on Abaddon, before they were ingloriously shot down by combi-bolters from rhinos.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrakes vs Venom   Fri Jul 14 2017, 12:41

Ok you got me. I'll drop 3 Venoms and take 3 squads of 5 Mandrakes for the next few games and see how they get on Smile
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