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 Why would you ever take an archon?

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Thu Jul 13 2017, 17:09

@Seshiru The issue with that is that, whilst the Huskblade might be marginally better than the Agoniser against those targets, it's nowhere near good enough to make me want to engage them in the first place.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Thu Jul 13 2017, 17:23

I kinda like the huskblade. My archon is modelled with one so I use it. Very Happy WYSIWYG FTW!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Thu Jul 13 2017, 17:28

Mine are magnetized, all my characters with options are.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Thu Jul 13 2017, 18:20

The Shredder wrote:
@Seshiru The issue with that is that, whilst the Huskblade might be marginally better than the Agoniser against those targets, it's nowhere near good enough to make me want to engage them in the first place.
Very good point

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Fri Jul 14 2017, 11:03

All this Archon talk makes me miss my combat monster from many editions ago, who would chew up Marine squads like they weren't there. It feels wrong to run my Kabal without an Archon, even if right now I can't make a legitimate game benefit call in his favour.

Back in the day with Reaver Jetbike, Power Sword, Tormentor Helm, Combat Drugs and Shadow Field he used to be almost unstoppable with S5, re-rolling misses, and 7 attacks. Except on the odd occasion he rolled triples and killed himself with drugs.

In terms of Agoniser vs Huskblade, it is a fairly easy Agoniser for me. The Huskblade has a slight edge against Bikes and Termies, but standard MEQ profiles seem a lot more common. With the cost edge (albeit a tiny cost) for the Agoniser it seems a fairly easy call.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Sat Jul 15 2017, 06:54

The Shredder wrote:
@Seshiru The issue with that is that, whilst the Huskblade might be marginally better than the Agoniser against those targets, it's nowhere near good enough to make me want to engage them in the first place.

Exactly.

The huskblade is not good enough that I would be trying to charge multiwound units. We have guns for that stuff.
Agoniser is cheap and effective against average infantry which is all Ill be charging anyway.
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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Sat Jul 15 2017, 15:28

I'm surprised no one is praising how good for Sslyths those rerolls to hit in shooting and combat are...
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Sat Jul 15 2017, 16:00

Drugo wrote:
I'm surprised no one is praising how good for Sslyths those rerolls to hit in shooting and combat are...

The thing is, Sslyth are now 44pts per model with a Shardcarbine, which is over 3 times the cost of a Scourge with a Shardcarbine.

So, for the price of 2 Sslyth you could have a minimum Scourge squad and still have 18pts left over.

Might be personal preference but I'd prefer having more cheap models with better firepower.


The thing with Sslyth is that they almost seem too resilient. For one, they're likely to be in a transport most of the time. For two, they're characters (so they can't be shot at all if you've got any other models that are closer). For three, they're primarily shooting units (so you don't have to worry about them needing to get out in front into melee range). And finally, in their role as bodyguards their resilience is irrelevant because any wounds they intercept for the Archon are automatic (so their toughness and 5++ are worthless for that purpose).

I don't know, maybe it's just me but I'd have far rather see Sslyth be cheaper and less resilient.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Sat Jul 15 2017, 16:08

Yeah... once i saw the 44pt price tag i said to myself "oh god no not for that price".

If he was an HQ... sure 44pt HQ is fine.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Sat Jul 15 2017, 16:14

I agree. Sslyth are overpriced and any rerolls or toughness irrelevant due to reasons that Shredder mentioned.
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Sslyth
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Sat Jul 15 2017, 17:10

Sslyth are on the expensive side indeed, but I've still had some good success using two as bodyguard for my Archon.

They have a solid damage output and will tank a fair amount of damage, either through direct damage because they are closer to enemies than the Archon or through ablative mortal wounds if something manages to get to the Archon somehow.

When playing Ynarii you'll get some more bang for your buck, since they are characters that are very likely to die and thus provide nice buffs to the Triumvirate.

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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Sun Jul 16 2017, 14:11

Definitely one of my most successful units instead, different play styles and all that.
The fact that they are characters with some smart positioning can really bother the opponent, true they go on a raider but usually I just put them in position and disembark with the archon, resilient enough to tie in a couple units and surprisingly killy in CC with the AP-1 and rerolls, good enough movement and range to make use of carbines as well.
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Tactical Salad
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Sun Jul 16 2017, 15:48

This has probably all been said before, but my turn:
2++ is pretty great tbh
2+ WS with a Blaster is nice
He's not too expensive
The (old) model looks goooooood
Fluff!! C'mon, who better to lead a Kabal to war than their one and only Archon

Purely competitively it might not be the best idea, depending on what else you want to run, but in normal games imo the fluff reason is enough.
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Colifato
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Mon Jul 17 2017, 17:28

Ok, so i finally followed your tips to include a Blaster/Huskblade archon in a raider with 2 medusaes and it was...... all wrong! (I play in a MEQ meta mostly)

The huskblade or agonizer are nothing against T4, even with 5 atacks.
I think that archons are only worth to boost medusaes. So, a very expensive boost.
In the future i will bring a Succubus with glaive and T4.

A question by the way:
does an archon give rerolls to medusaes if they are both inside a raider?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Mon Jul 17 2017, 17:59

Colifato wrote:
Ok, so i finally followed your tips to include a Blaster/Huskblade archon in a raider with 2 medusaes and it was...... all wrong! (I play in a MEQ meta mostly)

The huskblade or agonizer are nothing against T4, even with 5 atacks.
I think that archons are only worth to boost medusaes. So, a very expensive boost.
In the future i will bring a Succubus with glaive and T4.

A question by the way:
does an archon give rerolls to medusaes if they are both inside a raider?

1) No one said use Medusaes
2) Most said to use Agonisers not Huskblade
3) Abilities dont work in Vehicles otherwise stated
4) Archons are not power punches, they are effective cheap HQ's like a Captain, treat it as so
5) Blaster is still fine keep that.

I take mine with Agonsier and PGL only, i keep him as cheap as i can, i place him with a unit in a raider and forget about him till late game where he does a lot of damage, an Archon vs 3-4 Guys, the Archon will win always.

Meduseas are nice ish?, they are costly for what they do, if you do play them dont use them as a head strong unit, use them at key times to completely destroy units, important ones like Dark Reapers in Cover.
To get them there you need to move it with the rest of your army to have many Threats, if they are the only Threat they will die extremely fast.

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Last edited by amishprn86 on Mon Jul 17 2017, 18:20; edited 1 time in total
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Mon Jul 17 2017, 18:00

Colifato wrote:
Ok, so i finally followed your tips to include a Blaster/Huskblade archon in a raider with 2 medusaes and it was...... all wrong! (I play in a MEQ meta mostly)

I don't actually recall seeing that tactic mentioned. Razz

Colifato wrote:
The huskblade or agonizer are nothing against T4, even with 5 atacks.

Yeah, that's why you take a Blaster - because Archons are a shooting unit first and a combat unit second. Ideally, you want to avoid combat with them altogether.

Colifato wrote:
I think that archons are only worth to boost medusaes. So, a very expensive boost.

Are Medusae worth it in the first place? I think I'd rather invest in Disintegrators.

Colifato wrote:
does an archon give rerolls to medusaes if they are both inside a raider?

Nope. That would make far too much sense to make it into GW rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Mon Jul 17 2017, 22:27

About Medusae, they will probably see more plays once the WWP hits the codex. Paying 7points per 3+ (rerollable) S4 PA-2 shot is something i'm willing to do, but with that range and fact that auras don't work in transports, they kinda need the WWP to succeed.

Colifato wrote:
The huskblade or agonizer are nothing against T4, even with 5 atacks.
Huskblade is definitly situational at best, and not good vs MEQ, but Agonizer doesn't care about health. I think it's weak against T3, wounding conscripts on 4+ is a disgrace, but wounding T4 on 4+ seems okay to me.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Mon Jul 17 2017, 23:52

Mppqlmd wrote:
About Medusae, they will probably see more plays once the WWP hits the codex. Paying 7points per 3+ (rerollable) S4 PA-2 shot is something i'm willing to do, but with that range and fact that auras don't work in transports, they kinda need the WWP to succeed.

I wouldn't get your hopes up about us getting WWPs back.

But even if we do, they'll almost certainly work like all the other deep strike abilities out there. We'll have to land more than 9" away from any enemies - thus preventing Medusae from firing on the turn they land.

Mppqlmd wrote:

Huskblade is definitly situational at best, and not good vs MEQ, but Agonizer doesn't care about health. I think it's weak against T3, wounding conscripts on 4+ is a disgrace, but wounding T4 on 4+ seems okay to me.

Wounding T4 on 4s with no rerolls is pretty awful - especially for an HQ (and a glass-cannon HQ at that). What's more, the Agoniser no longer ignores 3+ saves (instead it's a piddling -2AP) - so marines are still getting a 5+ save if you wound them. All in all, an Agoniser Archon isn't even averaging 2 dead marines.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I think our Power from Patience chart is still rather meh. +1 to wound or rerolls to wound would have been soooo much more useful than +1 to hit.
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Tue Jul 18 2017, 00:16

aurynn wrote:
I agree. Sslyth are overpriced and any rerolls or toughness irrelevant due to reasons that Shredder mentioned.

Just keep them more than 3" from the Archon and they no longer take auto mortal wounds.

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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Sun Jul 23 2017, 20:10

Last night I played a 6k Battle against nids.
I left behind the idea of a "dark eldar assault army " and it was pretty damn good!
In a blasterborn spam army, the archon fits really Well indeed.
He support his lamheans with his blaster and gave better Ld to the reavers in the late game.
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Mon Jul 24 2017, 01:17

I just won a 20 man tournament using an archon with 4 medusae so I would say if you want to use them you can make them work. They did pretty good work for me and were a great way to keep shots off my warlord since it requires multiple units firing at them to kill all of them. I also liked them a lot for clearing dev squads sitting in cover and for tying up vehicles and heavy weapon teams since the multiple wounds allowed them to better survive overwatch and a small unit's attacks.

That said, I adjusted my list with the new razorwing flock nerf (I only had 10 anyways) and ended up cutting the medusae too to fit in more blasters and lances.
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Wed Jul 26 2017, 02:43

Drugo wrote:
I'm surprised no one is praising how good for Sslyths those rerolls to hit in shooting and combat are...

Because they aren't.
As a Characters, the best way to use them is by shooting. In melee, you need to roll 4 different charge rolls. And you are not covered in melee from enemy attacks.

But against shooting, you are. The Court is litterally invulnerable against shooting until you will have another unit nearest to the enemy. And even if you haven't it, let's say you have 4 Sslyths: I can't shoot them all. I need to spend all the fire of my unit into the first Sslyth, because the others are covered by this first guy.
Nice, isn't it?

But why I have to pay a full Sslyth for a shard carabine? In CC they lost all the benefits from being characters, they still roll a charge roll for any model, and even if they all come, they still have few attacks. Think about Grotesques or Fiends: both of them are superior for the CC side.

So you're paying a full rounded model that...isn't good for shooting nor for CC.

Shooting is the best way to keep benefits for being a Character. Yes, Medusae are the best members of the Court. And that's why I will literally bring an Archon: because you have 4 models that shoots pretty well, and if you move them well they still untargetable.


I don't really like the other choices mostly because they are all melees, and still Characters. I can found a better CC in other places. Otherwise, a nearly invulnerable goodshooting unit......
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Wed Jul 26 2017, 03:16

Would an Archon inside of a Tantalus be good? The LD 9 to pretty much your whole army would not be bad. I know you could always put a Succubus in there and give her the LD drug, but there are btter drugs for her. I like him to put in there and the 2+ Blaster shot.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Why would you ever take an archon?   Wed Jul 26 2017, 06:49

While I agree the Sslyth are slightly expensive.

Characters also have some advantages.
Remember as a character you do not have to charge to get into melee, you can also let the enemy charge you and do an heroic intervention. You can even do an heroic intervention when nothing is charging nearby, this makes them a lot more mobile.
And yes he has both shooting (which he does worse then others) and melee (which he does worse then other) but since he can do both if you are able to shoot and fight you do more (5.23 hits versus 3.75 of the beast). Thus the question is what you want to do. Shoot and fight and wipe a unit or fight units that will fall back thus being free again for next turn (Sslyth might be worth it) kill multiwound models or get stuck in melee and expect to never be free in your turn (beasts) So I find that they have different uses because the beast do not have the guns. Also with guns you can pick your fights easier then without, I prefer shooting a turn or 2 before mass assaulting.
Finaly your support is an archon (something you have to take anyway) instead of a beastmaster (which is more expensive then the archon and fights worse).

Not that I am saying Sslyth are great (they really needed to be a few points less), but they are also not completely useless.
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