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FrankyMcShanky
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PostSubject: No Escape!   Mon Jul 10 2017, 17:15

My initial interpretation of No Escape was that we could use multiple Wych units to force several No Escape checks, but after looking at the rules again I'm certain that an enemy will only have at most one No Escape check per unit a turn.

Quote :
Roll off if an enemy INFANTRY unit within 1" of any models with this ability wishes to Fall Back. The enemy unit can only Fall Back if the player commanding it wins the roll-off.

I've started pairing a Succubus with my Incubi to take advantage of this rule, even though it can be a bit of a coin toss.  

Have any of you had good experiences with No Escape?  Do you find it performs well in 8th edition?  Or is it too unreliable to... well.. rely on.

I will say No Escape is a pretty decent candidate for CP rerolls at the moment, seeing as it comes up at the start of your opponent's movement phase.  It's also nice that we only have to draw to keep the Mahn-Keys in melee.


Last edited by FrankyMcShanky on Mon Jul 10 2017, 19:25; edited 1 time in total
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Mon Jul 10 2017, 17:38

Flank charge several lines of conscripts or other gunline dudes - multicharge 2-4 units, watch them all try scurry away as they make 4 No Escape attempts, which should keep your wyches safely tucked in combat. Hilarious. Very Happy

Multicharge is the dick move with No Escape. Well... Multicharge something that actually WANTS to get away.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Mon Jul 10 2017, 18:18

I don't see why the opponent would only get 1 roll to fall back if several wyches units are locked in combat with it. Can you explain?
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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Mon Jul 10 2017, 18:25

Enemy can only fall back with a unit once per round. Perhaps it is usefull if you have multicharged, but I don't remember if "no escape" is a once per round ability or not.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Mon Jul 10 2017, 18:47

@dumpeal wrote:
I don't see why the opponent would only get 1 roll to fall back if several wyches units are locked in combat with it. Can you explain?

Its in the rule OP quoted:
Roll off if an enemy INFANTRY unit within 1" of any models with this ability wishes to Fall Back. The enemy unit can only Fall Back if the player commanding it wins the roll-off.

Means that number of units or models with this ability is irelevant as there can be gazillion but there will be only one roll off.
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FrankyMcShanky
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Mon Jul 10 2017, 19:21

@aurynn wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
I don't see why the opponent would only get 1 roll to fall back if several wyches units are locked in combat with it. Can you explain?

Its in the rule OP quoted:
Roll off if an enemy INFANTRY unit within 1" of any models with this ability wishes to Fall Back. The enemy unit can only Fall Back if the player commanding it wins the roll-off.

Means that number of units or models with this ability is irelevant as there can be gazillion but there will be only one roll off.

This is it exactly. Sorry, I should have explained my reasoning.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Mon Jul 10 2017, 19:33

@FrankyMcShanky wrote:

I will say No Escape is a pretty decent candidate for CP rerolls at the moment, seeing as it comes up at the start of your opponent's movement phase.  It's also nice that we only have to draw to keep the Mahn-Keys in melee.

Unfortunately, ties just mean that you have to do the roll-off again until you have a winner. There's a section in the core rules on how roll-offs are handled, and it states this.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Mon Jul 10 2017, 19:57

@aurynn wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
I don't see why the opponent would only get 1 roll to fall back if several wyches units are locked in combat with it. Can you explain?

Its in the rule OP quoted:
Roll off if an enemy INFANTRY unit within 1" of any models with this ability wishes to Fall Back. The enemy unit can only Fall Back if the player commanding it wins the roll-off.

Means that number of units or models with this ability is irelevant as there can be gazillion but there will be only one roll off.

English is not my main language. I get it, now. Thx.
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Mon Jul 10 2017, 20:49

For me so far no one has wanted to escape from the wyches, they are so bad in close combat that most things just choose to stay and slaughter them while laughing.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Mon Jul 10 2017, 20:56

@Seshiru wrote:
For me so far no one has wanted to escape from the wyches, they are so bad in close combat that most things just choose to stay and slaughter them while laughing.
Then you pick your targets wrong. They are meant to be an tarpit unit, attacking weak ennemies and slowly killing them while sticking to them. Things like Crisis Suits (wyches counter them hard), Eldar shooters, Marines Devastators. Of course, if you send them against Assault Marines, they will not try to fall back...
And if you send them against elite units that don't have a lot of attacks (not-assault termies, for example), their 4+ invulnerable gets really silly Very Happy
As always : chop the shooty, and shoot the choppy !
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Mon Jul 10 2017, 22:02

Exactly. You want to charge units that do want to get away. And BTW it takes 54 attacks hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s to kill unit of 10 wyches. I mean unit for 100 pts. Love them.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 00:34

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Seshiru wrote:
For me so far no one has wanted to escape from the wyches, they are so bad in close combat that most things just choose to stay and slaughter them while laughing.
Then you pick your targets wrong. They are meant to be an tarpit unit, attacking weak ennemies and slowly killing them while sticking to them. Things like Crisis Suits (wyches counter them hard), Eldar shooters, Marines Devastators. Of course, if you send them against Assault Marines, they will not try to fall back...
And if you send them against elite units that don't have a lot of attacks (not-assault termies, for example), their 4+ invulnerable gets really silly Very Happy
As always : chop the shooty, and shoot the choppy !
Wyches are garbage. Pure garbage.They don't get their 4++ against pistols and that makes them worthless as tarpits IMO. Tac Marines murder them.
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Mcprowlington
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 04:18

I wouldn't call them garbage, as they've been surprisingly killy and pretty much always earn their points back.

The issue is that because they're absolutely worthless without their transports (that literally double the cost of the unit) they need to kill almost double their points to be a net gain. At that point they start to come up short.
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FrankyMcShanky
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 04:26

@Mcprowlington wrote:
I wouldn't call them garbage, as they've been surprisingly killy and pretty much always earn their points back.

The issue is that because they're absolutely worthless without their transports (that literally double the cost of the unit) they need to kill almost double their points to be a net gain. At that point they start to come up short.

I actually haven't run them yet in 8th, so I'm have no opinion on the matter. But is there something to be said about their value beyond just the ability to kill? How desirable is their ability to tarpit units that they can't kill terribly fast?
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Mcprowlington
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 05:13

Of course there is value to their tarpit potential, the issue is that you have to win a 50/50 (as you said, a good candidate for CPs) over and over again to keep your wyches alive, but only have to fail once for your wyches to get completely obliterated.

Also you're spending around 200 points for that squad of wyches and the transport (squads of 5 are good but they're also then pretty limited as another tiny bit of unluck will have them evaporated even by a shooty unit) at that point your opponent needs to be fielding something pretty massive (that is also somehow still an infantry unit) for it to be worth it to just to hold it up for a few turns. At that point you need to consider if you were better off just taking another ravager or unit of scourges to wipe it off the battlefield alltogether.

I don't mean to sour you on the idea of wyches, they aren't terrible. There are many of us that love the models and the concept and will do whatever it takes to make them work.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 05:20

The odds of the wyches winning the no escape roll is better than 50/50 because your opponent has to beat your roll. I think it is more of a 65-66% chance to keep the enemy in combat.

I have used a unit wyches in about 10 games so far.
They have usually performed their job fairly well. I haven't been amazed by them, but I have never felt that they were crap either.

The wyches have been a pretty good tar-pit so far. And against non-dedicated assault units they tend to get work done. I prefer the +1 toughness or +1 attack with the wyches so far. I tend to give the succubus +2move.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 05:41

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Seshiru wrote:
For me so far no one has wanted to escape from the wyches, they are so bad in close combat that most things just choose to stay and slaughter them while laughing.
Then you pick your targets wrong. They are meant to be an tarpit unit, attacking weak ennemies and slowly killing them while sticking to them. Things like Crisis Suits (wyches counter them hard), Eldar shooters, Marines Devastators. Of course, if you send them against Assault Marines, they will not try to fall back...
And if you send them against elite units that don't have a lot of attacks (not-assault termies, for example), their 4+ invulnerable gets really silly Very Happy
As always : chop the shooty, and shoot the choppy !
Wyches are garbage. Pure garbage.They don't get their 4++ against pistols and that makes them worthless as tarpits IMO. Tac Marines murder them.
But... Wyches are not supposed to win their points back in kills... They are there to prevent enemy units from shooting or give you room to capture objectives.
In addition, if you charge just wyches, you are doing it wrong. T2 EVERYTHING charges. Including Ravagers. This not only swallows the overwatch, but gives them the edge in the fight before enemy retaliates. We are usually much much safer in CC than in the open. Very Happy
There are exceptions though.
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Mcprowlington
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 06:01

@colinsherlow wrote:
The odds of the wyches winning the no escape roll is better than 50/50 because your opponent has to beat your roll. I think it is more of a 65-66% chance to keep the enemy in combat.

I used to think this as well but then realized, as stated earlier in the thread, if you tie then you both have to reroll until there is a winner.

For the people running just a squad or two of wyches, what does the rest of your army generally look like?
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 06:21

@colinsherlow wrote:
The odds of the wyches winning the no escape roll is better than 50/50 because your opponent has to beat your roll. I think it is more of a 65-66% chance to keep the enemy in combat.

I have used a unit wyches in about 10 games so far.
They have usually performed their job fairly well. I haven't been amazed by them, but I have never felt that they were crap either.

The wyches have been a pretty good tar-pit so far. And against non-dedicated assault units they tend to get work done. I prefer the +1 toughness or +1 attack with the wyches so far. I tend to give the succubus +2move.

Same here, neither amazing nor horrible, just slightly on the weak side.
But remember you keep rerolling ties untill someone wins (page 178 left side roll offs), so it is a 50% chance that the enemy wins. Which is why I usually take an insane approach and go for footslogging wyches. With move 10 they usually get there fast enough and for only 49 points for 5 wyches they are not worth the trouble to kill, but are annoying enough that the enemy must kill them. Sure against any unit that can fight they will lose, but against all those nice little shooty units they just survive long enough to keep them from shooting 1 or 2 turns. And never throw them against pistol guys, nearly everyone with a pistol can fight reasonably as well.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 10:57

I've had success with wyches against necrons. In the current state of the rule, the Reanimation Protocol doesn't work if the Necrons are surrounded (the models have to be placed back at more than 1" from ennemies).
I had killed some lychguards, but many were left, and i didn't want them to come back, so i had them charged with wyches. Very few wyches died (thanks to 4+ inv), and with consolidation mvt i was able to surround them, which prevented the reanimation protocole. Next turn i could fall back and shoot them to death.

Expecting them to beat elite infantry is stupid, but against other 9 points infantry they always come out victorious. They work either as a tarpit for elite units, or a troop slaughter machine.

And against Conscript spam, they are extremely deadly (and that's cool, because our poison sucks against Conscript spam).

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 13:17

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
@Mppqlmd wrote:
@Seshiru wrote:
For me so far no one has wanted to escape from the wyches, they are so bad in close combat that most things just choose to stay and slaughter them while laughing.
Then you pick your targets wrong. They are meant to be an tarpit unit, attacking weak ennemies and slowly killing them while sticking to them. Things like Crisis Suits (wyches counter them hard), Eldar shooters, Marines Devastators. Of course, if you send them against Assault Marines, they will not try to fall back...
And if you send them against elite units that don't have a lot of attacks (not-assault termies, for example), their 4+ invulnerable gets really silly Very Happy
As always : chop the shooty, and shoot the choppy !
Wyches are garbage. Pure garbage.They don't get their 4++ against pistols and that makes them worthless as tarpits IMO. Tac Marines murder them.

Yes...because Marines actually want to stay in combat for pistols. They don't care about their full shooting power (plasma? Bolters?) they will stay in combat because of pistols.

Imho I hope they will stay with my wytches :p
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 14:31

Sorry for the slightly n00b question. How does multicharge work in this edition now? You declare that your unit will be multicharging but you need your models to move to the closest enemy model right?

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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 14:58

@Mcprowlington wrote:
@colinsherlow wrote:
The odds of the wyches winning the no escape roll is better than 50/50 because your opponent has to beat your roll. I think it is more of a 65-66% chance to keep the enemy in combat.

I used to think this as well but then realized, as stated earlier in the thread, if you tie then you both have to reroll until there is a winner.

For the people running just a squad or two of wyches, what does the rest of your army generally look like?


You don't reroll on a tie. The wyches enemy has to roll higher than the wyches. The wyches don't have to roll higher enemy. If your dice off is a tie the wyches win because the enemy unit didn't roll higher than the wyches

The rules for no escape is not a straight roll off like rolling for table sides or dropping objectives etc.

The rules for no escape are different. The enemy has to roll HIGHER than the wyches. The wyches dont have to roll higher than the enemy to win. A tie does not beat the wyches

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 15:11

@colinsherlow wrote:
@Mcprowlington wrote:
@colinsherlow wrote:
The odds of the wyches winning the no escape roll is better than 50/50 because your opponent has to beat your roll. I think it is more of a 65-66% chance to keep the enemy in combat.

I used to think this as well but then realized, as stated earlier in the thread, if you tie then you both have to reroll until there is a winner.

For the people running just a squad or two of wyches, what does the rest of your army generally look like?


You don't reroll on a tie. The wyches enemy has to roll higher than the wyches. The wyches don't have to roll higher enemy. If your dice off is a tie the wyches win because the enemy unit didn't roll higher than the wyches

The rules for no escape is not a straight roll off like rolling for table sides or dropping objectives etc.

The rules for no escape are different. The enemy has to roll HIGHER than the wyches. The wyches dont have to roll higher than the enemy to win. A tie does not beat the wyches

"No escape : Roll off (!!) is an enemy INFANTRY unit within 1" of any models with this ability wishes to Fall Back. The enemy unit can only Fall Back if the player commanding it wins (!!) the roll-off."
What does the rule for Roll-offs say ? It's in the Battle Primer, so feel free to check :
"Some rules instruct players to roll off. To do so, both players roll a D6, and whoever scores highest wins the roll-off. In the case of a tie, both players re-roll their D6; this is the only time players can re-roll a re-roll – if the second and subsequent rolls are also tied, keep on rolling until a winner is decided."
So it's a 50-50 chance. No ties allowed on roll-offs.

@colinsherlow wrote:
The enemy has to roll HIGHER than the wyches. The wyches dont have to roll higher than the enemy to win. A tie does not beat the wyches
This is wrong. It is written he has to win a roll-off. Winning a Roll-off means rerolling until all ties are settled.

@colinsherlow wrote:
The rules for no escape is not a straight roll off like rolling for table sides or dropping objectives etc.
If it's called a Roll-off (which it is), it follows the rules for Roll-offs.


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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: No Escape!   Tue Jul 11 2017, 15:16

Yep, seems pretty clear in the rules that you have to win the roll off, which means re-rolling until there is a winner.

On a related note, anyone else feel that falling back from combat should have involved a Leadership test rather than being automatic? This would also tie in nicely with DE as we have access to several Leadership debuffs.

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