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 Help me use Reavers (and hellions)

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ncshooter426
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PostSubject: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Wed Jul 05 2017, 17:54

I know they're not the killers they once were...but they're still one of the coolest models and I really want to run them. Rule of cool > Winning for me Wink The need for speed is strong....

With that being said, how are you using them? I was originally thinking using units of 6 on either flank, pushing them hard turn 1 into backline for the easy point, then holding behind cover until something else gets distracted. They lack the punch they had before, but still no slouches (expensive...). My hope is that no one will pay them any attention with the 5 fliers (muwahaha....) on the board Wink

Alternatively: Run them as cloud dancer corsairs for 2PP more making them 3-man darklances that can be set up anywhere. Slightly tougher than Scourges with 1 less DL shot max and no DS (but way more mobile)
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Colifato
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Wed Jul 05 2017, 18:39

I take them in 2 packs of 6 with heatlances. First turn as a screen for my transports. Then advance and shoot to get first blood. They are excellent to charge and neutralize enemy tanks.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Wed Jul 05 2017, 19:52

One way i use them is one troop of 6 reavers, no guns, just G. Talon, shielding 10 Hellions.
You deploy them around the Hellions, and with the 2 hp and the 5 Toughness, your formation is actually very hard to kill.
The idea behind this is then to fly past an ennemy troop (infiltrated Stealth Suits, for example), and deploy the Reavers between the Stealth Suits and the rest of the T'au army. You can the proceed to chop the Stealth suits into hagis with the Hellions while being sure that, even if you kill them all or if they retreat, your 170ish Hellions squad isn't gonna end up as Impulsion Gun fooder.
You're more or less paying a bit less than 400 points for a little Deathstar that flies fast, shoots well and can deal with 2 targets at the same time.

In 7th edition i used Reavers to shielwall my Hellions (since T4 3+ cover was sooo good). I feel like it has become their only relevant role. And since Hellions got buffed...
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ncshooter426
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Wed Jul 05 2017, 20:01

@Mppqlmd wrote:
One way i use them is one troop of 6 reavers, no guns, just G. Talon, shielding 10 Hellions.
You deploy them around the Hellions, and with the 2 hp and the 5 Toughness, your formation is actually very hard to kill.
The idea behind this is then to fly past an ennemy troop (infiltrated Stealth Suits, for example), and deploy the Reavers between the Stealth Suits and the rest of the T'au army. You can the proceed to chop the Stealth suits into hagis with the Hellions while being sure that, even if you kill them all or if they retreat, your 170ish Hellions squad isn't gonna end up as Impulsion Gun fooder.
You're more or less paying a bit less than 400 points for a little Deathstar that flies fast, shoots well and can deal with 2 targets at the same time.

In 7th edition i used Reavers to shielwall my Hellions (since T4 3+ cover was sooo good). I feel like it has become their only relevant role. And since Hellions got buffed...


So wait, I form a U around the hellions with the reavers - then push them both up. The reavers fly over, hellions engage the target. Reavers re-charge from the rear after the hellions charge?
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Wed Jul 05 2017, 20:18

It would be even better to charge before the hellions, so the T5 W2 models are soaking overwatch.
The point of flying past the target is that after the fight, your reavers are still forming a wall between the rest of the ennemy army and your precious green-goblin-wannabees (you can use consolidate moves to help a bit reform the wall).

For me it worked quite well in order to eat some Necron Tomb Blades that got a bit too near.
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ncshooter426
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Wed Jul 05 2017, 21:34

@Mppqlmd wrote:
It would be even better to charge before the hellions, so the T5 W2 models are soaking overwatch.
The point of flying past the target is that after the fight, your reavers are still forming a wall between the rest of the ennemy army and your precious green-goblin-wannabees (you can use consolidate moves to help a bit reform the wall).

For me it worked quite well in order to eat some Necron Tomb Blades that got a bit too near.

Gotcha. So do you +1 toughness the bikeshields for extra staying power?
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Wed Jul 05 2017, 21:40

Quote :
Gotcha. So do you +1 toughness the bikeshields for extra staying power?
Yep. And +1 A or S on the hellions, depending on ennemies, if you're fielding wyches, and personal taste".
Also, note that hellions and reavers are really complementary in CC. Both have nice strength, with -1 AP and mortal wounds for reavers against 2 damage, more attacks (because cheaper) and access to S5 for hellions. Seeing them work together is really nice (something they couldn't do in 7th edition).
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Wed Jul 05 2017, 22:32

I use units of 3 reavers and run them up the flanks.

They rarely get shot so they always hit their target.
The extra blasters are sweet.

I had 3 reavers lock down 20 tac marines, kill 5 with shooting/gravtalon/bladevanes AND draw out a counter assault unit. Always worth it. Cool


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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 02:01

I also use units of 3 they don't draw much fire that way, and when they do it's not a major loss. I usually run them with a blaster and grab talons. They are fast so they can get to where they need to be and provide support to whatever. Need to absorb overwatch and/or provide some extra umph in cc, send the Reavers to help, need to blow up that tank send the Reavers to help, and so on. It may take a little forward planning, but they are a fast adaptable unit so I find they often come in handy.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 06:43

I use units of 3 but also in conjunction with hellions.
Soaking up overwatch, and making sure he needs to keep his characters inside units instead of at the back.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 07:01

Guys - a question - As for the Hellions, don't yours just get flamed or hosed by Helldrakes, flyers and other fast moving or long range mass shooting? Reavers cannot screen them off from that. Any biker unit with Twin weaponry (just about any save for ours) reduces them to shreds.

Mine always get wiped by some otherwise insignificant element of the enemy army that would not have a target to shoot had I taken somethin in transport instead.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 07:46

@aurynn wrote:
Guys - a question - As for the Hellions, don't yours just get flamed or hosed by Helldrakes, flyers and other fast moving or long range mass shooting? Reavers cannot screen them off from that. Any biker unit with Twin weaponry (just about any save for ours) reduces them to shreds.

Mine always get wiped by some otherwise insignificant element of the enemy army that would not have a target to shoot had I taken somethin in transport instead.

Good question.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 08:39

I have not met any helldrakes, the only flyer I met had bigger guns so preferred to shoot at transports.
I don't have much transports so they can still shoot a lot of other stuff as well I think that might help with their survivability. I also have beasts a unit of kabalites and wyches on foot besides my 2 units of hellions.
I do lose a few to shooting if I cannot hide them the first turn. But it means usually only 1 squad or so of shooting which means the second squad can still hit stuff.

But I do agree I like the models very much, but they are slightly to expensive for how fast they die. And without ap their punch is also not that great. But still they are so good against tyranids and orks (both shoot slightly worse then space marines for example, and have a lot of bad save multiple wound models).

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closecraig
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 08:44

@Mppqlmd wrote:
One way i use them is one troop of 6 reavers, no guns, just G. Talon, shielding 10 Hellions.
You deploy them around the Hellions, and with the 2 hp and the 5 Toughness, your formation is actually very hard to kill.
The idea behind this is then to fly past an ennemy troop (infiltrated Stealth Suits, for example), and deploy the Reavers between the Stealth Suits and the rest of the T'au army. You can the proceed to chop the Stealth suits into hagis with the Hellions while being sure that, even if you kill them all or if they retreat, your 170ish Hellions squad isn't gonna end up as Impulsion Gun fooder.
You're more or less paying a bit less than 400 points for a little Deathstar that flies fast, shoots well and can deal with 2 targets at the same time.

In 7th edition i used Reavers to shielwall my Hellions (since T4 3+ cover was sooo good). I feel like it has become their only relevant role. And since Hellions got buffed...

Excuse my ignorance but how do reavers provide a shieldwall? The enemy can still shoot the hellions behind, right? They simply cannot charge unless they too have fly.

Considering how expensive reavers are, I wouldn't recommend using them as a shieldwall. I have however been unable to find a viable role for them.

Regarding hellions - they're such easy targets that you have to be really careful with them. I'd never recommend running a unit greater than 5 as it's so much harder to hide.

Hellions for me, whilst expensive - Do have a useful purpose but I've yet to see my reavers return their points value or even impact a game in a meaningful way.
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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 09:43

@closecraig wrote:

Excuse my ignorance but how do reavers provide a shieldwall? The enemy can still shoot the hellions behind, right? They simply cannot charge unless they too have fly.

Considering how expensive reavers are, I wouldn't recommend using them as a shieldwall. I have however been unable to find a viable role for them.

Regarding hellions - they're such easy targets that you have to be really careful with them. I'd never recommend running a unit greater than 5 as it's so much harder to hide.

Hellions for me, whilst expensive - Do have a useful purpose but I've yet to see my reavers return their points value or even impact a game in a meaningful way.

That is correct, they are far from the definition of a deathstar... definitely there's more efficient ways to spend points to achieve the same result.
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the_scotsman
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 11:26

I've used them primarily to run up flanks and hunt characters and backline heavy weapon units. I've yet to have a unit of 3 fail to deal over 100 points of damage.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 11:40

@closecraig wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but how do reavers provide a shieldwall? The enemy can still shoot the hellions behind, right? They simply cannot charge unless they too have fly.
Well we may have overlooked something, but my community still considers that if you can't see enough of the models, you can't shoot them. And reavers offer quite a lot of physical coverage.
But maybe there is no rule to back up that consensus.

As for fast ennemies, since your 6 reavers bubble covers both front and flanks of your hellions, the ennemy has to fly past you. Which is, i agree, totally doable for flyers, but a bit hard for jetbikes (unless of course you help them to).

Sure, this formation is vulnerable to being overrun, since it relies so much on line of sight. I'm using it against long-ranged low-mobility armies (T'au, IG and some SM) that i'm used to play against. Depending on your local meta it might not be as worthwhile as it is for me.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 12:00

It really helps against overwatch that they have a 4+ save and a t5 with drugs (this means that for overwatch they are as thougher then our vehicles and need over twice as much shots as hellions to deal a wound).
And they give a have a large enough footprint to block charges. And will survive against small units while the hellions would crumble.

How do you get 100 damage?
2 shots and 2 attacks times 3 +1 cluster caltrop+4 from 6 damage heatlance is 17 damage a turn this times 6 turns means 95 wounds at most (and that is assuming everything hit, everything wounded and you did max damage every time) I think you might be exegerating a little bit.
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hekatrixxy
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 12:12

I think he means he killed 100 points worth of models. Not dealt 100 unsaved wounds.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 12:14

He wrote "100 points of damage."
Cant be much clearer than that.
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 13:44

I think hekatrixxy is correct. Sounds like he's saying they earn their points back

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 15:03

Heh. In my area reavers couldnt physically screen enough of the hellions to provide a shield. Rules are clear - either nothing is visible or you can shoot.
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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 15:13

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@closecraig wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but how do reavers provide a shieldwall? The enemy can still shoot the hellions behind, right? They simply cannot charge unless they too have fly.
Well we may have overlooked something, but my community still considers that if you can't see enough of the models, you can't shoot them. And reavers offer quite a lot of physical coverage.
But maybe there is no rule to back up that consensus.

As for fast ennemies, since your 6 reavers bubble covers both front and flanks of your hellions, the ennemy has to fly past you. Which is, i agree, totally doable for flyers, but a bit hard for jetbikes (unless of course you help them to).

Sure, this formation is vulnerable to being overrun, since it relies so much on line of sight. I'm using it against long-ranged low-mobility armies (T'au, IG and some SM) that i'm used to play against. Depending on your local meta it might not be as worthwhile as it is for me.

I'm pretty sure you can draw true LoS through some reavers.. in any case you are saying that the tactic is to use a more expensive unit to shield a cheaper one? Honestly, spending at least 180 points to babysit some hellions is just a bad idea, if you really really want to do it for some reason at least use a raider, it's much cheaper and can use a dark lance..
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ncshooter426
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 15:17

@closecraig wrote:

They simply cannot charge unless they too have fly.

Fly doesn't make you immune to charge - you must have the specific wording in your abilities (airborne, etc) to make you immune to ground charge. Fly just let's you fall back and shoot, or in the hellions case (hit and run), fall back and shoot+charge
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use Reavers (and hellions)   Thu Jul 06 2017, 15:34

Hellions are more expensive targets than reavers. Your opponent, for a given amount of dakka, will take more of your points shooting hellions than reavers. Reavers pay 15 points for 1 HP at T4-5 Svg 4+, Hellions pay 17pts for 1 HP T3-4 svg 5+.

If you're paying for Reavers, you're not paying for melee/shooting power. You are paying 2 wounds on a T4-5 model. So either you make use of those 2 wounds, or you don't play reavers. Simple as that. The fact that people ignore them since they are the most resilient unit is interesting, and can lead them to some objective grabbing/linebreaker.

Since soaking up overwatch is now done by raiders, that role is gone. The role i found for reavers is hellion bodyguards, and it works at my local due to the rule of "at least 25% of target has to be seen in order to shoot it" (so i'm not theory crafting here, that's how we play. But you can think we're playing wrong). If it doesn't work at your locals, well you'll have to find another role for reavers, and abandon them.
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