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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 10:59

I think this thread is getting way off tangent and I will need to review comments made when I have a chance. For the moment, please keep it on topic! - Count Adhemar

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PartZebra
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 11:11

Yes, in any case,
other than flocks, do we think there's any other Drukhari unit that will get rebalanced?

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 11:12

Hellions, Mandrakes, Court, Archon, Reavers, Grots, Cronos, maybe Talos. Just from the top of my head.


Last edited by aurynn on Fri Jul 07 2017, 11:12; edited 1 time in total
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 11:12

Hissy fitting spite? Sorry, my English is not that great. What does this mean?

I think only reavers and Flocks will get altered. The rest will be strategems and war gear and stuff
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 11:14

@aurynn wrote:
Hellions, Mandrakes, Court, Archon, Reavers, Grots, Cronos, maybe Talos. Just from the top of my head.

I'd largely agree with that, with the possible exception of Mandrakes.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 11:16

Do you guys think the Mandrakes will get better or worse?

I'm not sold on them. They didn't perform well last game.

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PartZebra
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 11:24

Oh really? Why Mandrakes do you think? I thought they were in a good spot!

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 12:48

19 points and the damage output is too bad. Granted, I used them against death guard but they just didn't cut it

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 13:21

MMh I think one of the problems is that most things that deal multiple wounds are a little bit overpriced.
Hellions, could do with a small price decrease
Court, not sure, I have only used the Sslyth but I am not sure they are that far of. What do you think needs to be changed?
Archon, Needs to actually feel like a leader in some way. Either boosting kabalites or something else.
Reavers, could do with a price decrease or have the option for special weapons on all of them.

Not sure about the Grots, Cronos.
Talos could do with an ap weapon, I think that solves most of his problems right?
Mandrakes, would not mind if they got a price decrease, but I find them quite ok where they are. Then again against bs3 armies they probably drop a lot in survivability, so I might have a scewed vieuw on them.

No one mentions the Venom who desperately needs a 6th transport spot or our elites (incubi, bloodbrides and trueborn) need to be able to come in units of 3/4 minimum?

Huskblade, demiclaives, beastmaster scourge, stunclaw, need a price decrease
Shard net and impalor need to do more and/or need a large price reduction

heat lance, splinter cannon, haywire blaster and coven ranged weapons need a price reduction
shredder need to get a better function
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 16:54

I think the Impaler is fine, its the shardnet that does absolutely nothing. Lelith has an Impaler and it has the exact same stats as the shardnet/impaler combo. I'm hoping the shardnet/impaler combo will give the damage boost but also add +1 to your roll when keeping enemies locked in combat.

The talos needs an upgrade. The ichor injector seems to have traded places with a Harlequin Kiss in it being a 1 attack from that weapon only. I think that needs to change, as it is expensive and the risk is not worth the reward.

If they changed Haywire to mortal wound on 3+ instead of 4+ I would be more inclined to take them. As I see it now, they increased the wounds on all vehicles, but lowered the output on one of our main sources of AV. Hell, even AP-2 and wounding on 2+ (like last edition) would be an improvement in my opinion.

Grotesques need an increase in wounds.

I'm sure there are more things I'd want changed, but those are what I've noticed so far. As far s DE flavor coming back, I'll wait and see what kinds of Relics and Strategems we have. And I miss Webway portals...
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 18:04

Seeing as how grotesques had as many wounds as our HQs in the previous edition(s), it would make more sense to give them 5 wounds each (or at least 4).

Talos' chainflails also need major revision in order to be an attractive choice.
The AP on the talos' macro-scalpels should be at least a -2.

I'd be happy if they just bumped haywire blasters to Assault 2.

As for other stuff:

Shredders need to be given rules that make them worth taking. They're even worse now than they were in 7th edition.

Bloodbrides need to be given some extra options to make them different from wyches, just as trueborn are different from kabalite warriors. Maybe something analogous to the warrior-to-trueborn upgrade, like allowing up to 4 models to take wyche gladiatorial weapons, and 2 to take weapons from a separate melee weapons list (agonizer/power sword/electrocorrosive whip).

They need to bring back the vehicle upgrades that the indexes forgot about: splinter racks, torment grenade launchers, enhanced aethersails.

The Succubus/Lelith should have more than 4 attacks (especially since our other HQs get 5).

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 18:33

@krayd wrote:
Seeing as how grotesques had as many wounds as our HQs in the previous edition(s), it would make more sense to give them 5 wounds each (or at least 4).

Talos' chainflails also need major revision in order to be an attractive choice.
The AP on the talos' macro-scalpels should be at least a -2.

Bloodbrides need to be given some extra options to make them different from wyches, just as trueborn are different from kabalite warriors. Maybe something analogous to the warrior-to-trueborn upgrade, like allowing up to 4 models to take wyche gladiatorial weapons, and 2 to take weapons from a separate melee weapons list (agonizer/power sword/electrocorrosive whip).

My thoughts exactly.

@krayd wrote:
They need to bring back the vehicle upgrades that the indexes forgot about: splinter racks, torment grenade launchers, enhanced aethersails.

I really hope they return as well...
Especially the loss of Splinter Racks and especially the sails is really huge in my opinion.

@krayd wrote:
I'd be happy if they just bumped haywire blasters to Assault 2.

Shredders need to be given rules that make them worth taking. They're even worse now than they were in 7th edition.

Clearly, Haywire needs something more. I think Haywire should simply deal 2 mortal wounds with D3 extra wounds on a 6. Given the amount of wounds on vehicles I don't think that is unreasonable.

As for the Shredder, they should do their job as designated anti-blob weapon and get Assault1D6 instead.

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 18:50

Archons definitely need an aura buff, ideally, I'd like a lot more shooty HQs as well.

As for Shredders..I think they should just be changed to our version of a flamer. It's not that difficult to believe, fluff wise, and it might give us an extra kick. As for its stats, I'm not sure if just changing it to D3 Autohits would give it enough oomph.

Wyches, Incubi, Khymera, or at least freaking Succubi need an "Always Hit First" Mechanic.

I think it would be nice if Torment Grenade Launchers were S10, but wounded off of Leadership instead of Toughness. There was something like that in our 5th Edition Codex, a mirror or something?

The Void Lance needs a total rework, at the moment they're pretty useless. Implosion Missiles too.

Blasters could use a rework as well, perhaps a flat damage value to make it more reliable?

Splinter Cannons should just be changed to a flat Heavy 6, with an ability similar to Dark Lances. Otherwise change it to Poison 3+ to give it a little more oomph? Or at least give it a price decrease.

Our unique characters need some auras that aren't just generic. Reavers need a price decrease.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 19:02

I disagree. We do not NEED "first strike". Anything that disregards any core game mechanic is a very dangerous thing to introduce into a ruleset. Especially one that removes a tactical layer like first strike.  I'd much rather have the double activation of berserkers than this.

D3 Autohit with S6 reroll wounds not oomph enough? Very Happy Autohit overwatch not oomph enough? Well lol... I dont want it to end as a 15pts weapon.

Either Autohits or AP -3 on 6+. With reroll wounds it would be amazing weapon.
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 19:12

Quote :
I disagree. We do not NEED "first strike". Anything that disregards any core game mechanic is a very dangerous thing to introduce into a ruleset. Especially one that removes a tactical layer like first strike. I'd much rather have the double activation of berserkers than this

Howling Banshees, Jain Zar, Autarchs of multiple varieties, and some Slaanesh units get that rule, it's not exactly uncommon, and pretty much every other army that relied on high initiative has gotten some compensation for its lost. Why shouldn't we?

D3 averages out to 2, so that's what, two wounds at AP0? Hardly game breaking, even against GEQ.

I'd rather like to assume this was a miscommunication, but I can't help but feel a distinct tone of condescension here, I'd appreciate if that didn't continue, if it was intentional or not.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 19:24

My usual argument - we do not have to have what everyone does. I'd prefer something unique. Like harder fallback, which I actually love and am happy with. We have a 4++ CCers with drugs that can shift their role prior to battle, which are harder to fall back from for 10 points each and with means to eat overwatch with Vehicles. I find wyches absolutely amazing for the cost and I am afraid that more abilities would make them too expensive and unusable. We have Incubi to do the heavier lifting.

I do not use condescension. It was meant to come with a friendly laugh. Its a game, no need to be serious about it. Smile

Well its not D6 but D3, true, but I still feel that it would be way too cheap for so universal weapon that circumvents or lessens impact of two game mechanics. Its almost like a Mortal Wound that circumvents Invuls and Armour saves (2 game mechanics).
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 19:36

I'm in no hurry for a codex, I think the index put us in a reasonably good position overall and I think it'll serve as an ok interrim solution. If the codex is more than half a year away, then maybe GW will have time to make some small adjustments, otherwise we'll be stuck with what we have and it'll be way better than the last codex. I don't bother about the broken stuff (birds, apparently) since my group usually keep it friendly and impose our own restrictions even though it's still competetive in a sense. I've never been a fan of the "unbound" crap anyway and the present GW "recommendations" allowing three detachments is in my opinion just that.

Sure, while we're wishlisting... :-)
Reavers should definitely be reduced in price or given a boost. They could have caltrops and/or talons included or at least allowed on all bikes, extra attack on the charge, or something like that. However I think they should be a cc unit primarily, they are wyches after all. Hence I do not want the possibility to put better guns on all bikes, let the fake Eldar have their tricks. Of course they could also be reduced by 5 pts, or get improved shooting (splinter pods or twin rifles for instance).

Wyches slightly boosted. I don't know how much good a 6++ that is increased to a 4++ in cc (against pistols as well) would do, but it's better than nothing. Brides could get 5++ increased to 4++ in cc.

Archon could allow a unit of Trueborn as toops, and Succubus could allow a unit of brides as troops.

Heat lances at least 10 pts cheaper, dark lances possibly 5 pts more expensive, splinter cannon cheaper, shredder cheaper/altered, haywire... cheaper and/or improved.

Shardnets could give +1 on the roll off to keep units in the fight or whatever? Razorflails perhaps +2 attacks or better ap, when would they be worth considering compared to the hydra gauntlet?

Our vehicles, Hellions, Scourges, Mandrakes, Warriors/Trueborn and Incubi are in my opinion ok, even though not perfectly balanced internally. I'll definitely use all of them at one point or another. I have abandoned the coven stuff, even though I really liked the feel of it from the beginning, and I don't do beasts.

And I would like to thank mr Angst for the Sister story, good stuff. I have a friend who also developed a nun fluff bit where the poor gals ended up being Slaanesh worshippers in their little convent after finding an exciting book and then allied with daemons and heretic guard. It's nice to hear well thought out justifications for odd alliances.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 19:54

@Kurdush wrote:
Wyches slightly boosted. I don't know how much good a 6++ that is increased to a 4++ in cc (against pistols as well) would do, but it's better than nothing. Brides could get 5++ increased to 4++ in cc.

AFAIK that 4++ is not against pistols. Its in Fight phase only. Pistols shoot in shooting phase. Did I miss something?
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Kurdush
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 19:56

Well, only that I wish they had the save against pistols as well. :-)

I mean, they should have the save if they are engaged in close combat.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 19:57

@Kurdush wrote:
Well, only that I wish they had the save against pistols as well. :-)
LOL my bad. :-) Was reading too quick.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Fri Jul 07 2017, 20:13

Quote :
And I would like to thank mr Angst for the Sister story, good stuff. I have a friend who also developed a nun fluff bit where the poor gals ended up being Slaanesh worshippers in their little convent after finding an exciting book and then allied with daemons and heretic guard. It's nice to hear well thought out justifications for odd alliances.

Those kinds of armies are the most fun IMO because the person running them has to think outside the box to get everyone working together. Taudar not withstanding of course.

Honestly idk what I want out of the codex beyond fluff and obvious fixes. Bloodbrides being good would be nice. I'd like an excuse to bring splinter cannons again. Perhaps drop the cost of the Razorwing Jetfighter a bit. Webway portals of course. Maybe give the Talos a battlefield role beyond none at all. There's not many glaring issues just kinda bland HQ rules and such. The ubiquitous rerolls and leadership buffs and all that don't feel flavorful.

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Jim_the_archon
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Mon Jul 10 2017, 07:43

I'd like to see a "create your own kabal/cult/covern" mechanic something similar to what space marines/guard used to have in 4th. When I was reading about the codex's it seemed that that was part of what was suggested and it got me quite excited, being able to tailor your army so the only difference between them isn't just a name and a paint scheme.
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Mon Jul 10 2017, 11:15

Let's not forget the case of useless weapons.
Shardnet and impaler and stunclaw both need a special rule to justify their existence (someone suggested +1 to the roll-off for "No escape" for the Shardnet, i love it).

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Mon Jul 10 2017, 11:16

Shredder too.
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: GW Codex announcement   Tue Jul 11 2017, 14:33

if this is just wishlisting id like reavers to utilise their signature driveby attack style and less caltrops / talons
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